Dr. K and the perils of Passive Aggressive Therapy speak: Who’s the Beta Cuck?
Added 2024-05-22 19:33:06 +0000 UTCFor those of you who do not know we have a YouTube channel. This is where we host the videos we upload (though some are unlisted) but editor Andy has also been editing segments from the Supplementary Material episodes to release as standalone mini-videos.
The video above is from a Supplementary Material we released a few weeks back. I'm posting it here for feedback before we release the video publicly because it feels a little bit sensitive and am just curious about people's opinions. On the one hand, we already released this content, stand by everything we said, and are doing a full-length Dr. K episode in a few weeks. On the other, since this is commenting on an exchange between a husband and wife and more people will be likely to encounter it on YouTube, we want to make sure it does not come across as exploitative or cruel.
The video is still up on Dr. K's channel and was pointed out to us by a listener who found the exchange rather chilling. We agree with that assessment. However, we would be interested in hearing any opinions. We are foregoing the temptation to mention Beta-Cuck in the YouTube title, so in some ways, we are already being restrained.
Anyway, as mentioned, feedback/opinions are welcomed!
Comments
I’m North American. This may be “common” I don’t know,but it’s disgusting,especially in public.
Rod Hodges
2024-05-28 20:11:07 +0000 UTCUgh! Why would people put this crap out there in public. Disgusting
Rod Hodges
2024-05-28 20:08:52 +0000 UTCAs someone who practiced as a licensed psychotherapist for a couple of decades, I've witnessed therapy speak weaponized in SO many contexts, and yes, this is another great example, and of course the context of doing it on stream in front of a large audience ramps up the impact. I've followed Dr K's content for a while, interested in how therapists are occupying these large online spaces, and while claiming "not to do therapy", are nonetheless doing something that yes, does skirt around the regulations and in fact simply depends on the people involved stating that they are NOT in a therapeutic relationship. Dr K's audience was built on the gamer community and as such is largely geared to young men. As a woman and gamer myself, I have found Dr. K's online space quite - not quite hostile- but definitely quite deaf in a way toward more egalitarian and inclusive sensibilities. Which is relevant because he holds himself up as giving life and relationship advice to this audience. And has specifically set his own relationship as a model. When I first saw this clip a few weeks ago- I was actually not too surprised. It definitely speaks to how Dr K is unwilling to alienate, and is actually quite attuned to, the more misogynistic currents in his audience. Looking forward to seeing you unpack more about the trend of mental health professionals dressing up in spiritual clothing online.
Sam D.
2024-05-25 18:46:17 +0000 UTCI think this content comes across much worse and cringey as an Australian. This type of communication is so far from normality from my perspective but may seem more normal, culture wise, to a North American. I see people defending Dr K saying that this is out of context or is just a single clip but to me, this is completely unhinged and is fair game.
Jadedmustard
2024-05-25 00:54:06 +0000 UTCI was on the fence before watching, because the clips is what stuck in my mind when I first listened. Felt exploitative because it pulled on some uncomfortable emotional strings. But your commentary is what makes it worth posting. It has potential to help some people gain important perspective on Dr. K.
Jean-François Melançon
2024-05-24 01:38:38 +0000 UTCI’m not dismissing your point by no means and actually think it’s very valuable input, but it occurred to me that according to that theory *any* criticism of dr K will affect Ms K. If so, there is no particular reason to not post this content, which would be beneficial for people viewing dr K as their role model
aneladgam_varelse
2024-05-23 20:58:09 +0000 UTCI want to learn more about Kavanaughlogy.
Linda Sears
2024-05-23 18:11:27 +0000 UTCExcellent point, Emma.
Linda Sears
2024-05-23 17:46:29 +0000 UTCIt's not good. I got the same feeling when I heard it on the show the other week, but its even worse when you can see them. Obviously a guy who is riddled with insecurities and has found a submissive partner whom he feels the need to keep in check. Guy may think he's a therapist, but he's just a dweeb who can't assert himself and feels the need to belittle his partner to do so. All the signs are there for her to do one... PRONTO
Charlie Tymon
2024-05-23 16:52:55 +0000 UTCYou can tell from the interaction and body language what's going on under the surface. If it had not been genuine, he would have exploded again later when she poked fun at it, or at least expressed some degree of irritation or negative emotion. But he didn't, even despite her jokingly prodding him (which she obviously felt comfortable enough to do, which tells you even more). That tells us this is something they have done before, know well about each other, know the limits of, and both know how to get through, which they did. In other words, they demonstrated effective communication, for THEM. Other people don't have to do it the same way in THEIR relationships. But their relationships are not the ones under the spotlight here.
Andy
2024-05-23 15:29:26 +0000 UTCJust to say of course they they returned to baseline. They were live to thousands of viewers they both know they better resolve it real quick or the entire persona and career is ruined. If this was a hidden camera find maybe their return to baseline quickly might be a more notable positive
Tasty3141
2024-05-23 15:15:15 +0000 UTC@mathias i second the motion
Idan Ca
2024-05-23 14:10:22 +0000 UTCYeah. It was weirdly submissive. None of my friends would tolerate their partner acting up like that without snapping back. But she seemed to be working hard to appease him.
Emma
2024-05-23 13:27:39 +0000 UTCI worried about the same thing @Emma. Especially when I saw her reaction to him being offended. It read as a little... scared ... to me? It's hard to know though.
Anna J
2024-05-23 13:25:28 +0000 UTCCringy! I guess if they have left it public then it's fair game for you to decode publicly. I just worry a bit for her. I read an article recently about how DV originates from men feeling shamed or humiliated. Not necessarily by their partner. But then they lash out at their partner to try and make them self feel powerful again. Which he is already kind of doing here cause of the beta cuck thing. Which also demonstrates how over sensitive he is! But maybe it would also be good for her to see, as a bit of a reality check? Poor woman :-(
Emma
2024-05-23 12:22:10 +0000 UTCCan I detail my grievances with the poor medical ethics of Dr K and also specific examples of him blatantly lying about medical consensus / best medical practice in his streams or should I wait for the general post 🫠🫠🫠
Anna J
2024-05-23 10:06:09 +0000 UTCWhat in your view is the difference between 'using' therapy speak, and 'weaponizing' it? The exchange might have made you uncomfortable. He was upset (which he has every right to be as an imperfect human), and that alone makes some people very uncomfortable. But that says more about you than it does him. She seemed very aware of how he was feeling, remained calm, appeared to know how to handle it pretty well, and the situation was diffused quickly. That tells you they've done this before. It was their communication, not yours. It must be looked at in context, and to completion, in terms of THEM. And when you look at the entire exchange, they resolved the conflict very quickly, returned to their baseline, even making a joke about it that did NOT reignite emotions in any way (which it would have if feelings were not resolved, i.e., that tells you it was not a passive-aggressive jab, but a genuine joke). That tells you additional information about each of their temperaments. I saw an exchange of effective communication, that works for those two people. (And honestly was a lot better than what a lot of other couples might do in the same situation.) Whether or not it makes you uncomfortable is irrelevant to how effectively they communicate. I might not like the idea of two people whipping and pissing on each other for sexual pleasure. But my opinion doesn't matter, if two consenting adults are doing what's best for them. The bottom line is whether it works for them or not.
Andy
2024-05-23 06:49:42 +0000 UTCThe thing is 1) a well adjusted person with decades of online experience should not get hurt by some rando calling them names 2) if they still get pissed an adult should be able to self regulate and not lash out in front of everybody but rather talk about it in private
Stan
2024-05-23 06:35:24 +0000 UTCI will try… I listened to some random episodes and can’t remember exactly which ones. I have a vague memory and will try getting the timestamp.
Sharmi
2024-05-23 06:24:11 +0000 UTCThat’s harsh. What would you do with people like that when they go to couple therapy?
aneladgam_varelse
2024-05-23 06:18:50 +0000 UTCCan you give link to that?
aneladgam_varelse
2024-05-23 05:12:11 +0000 UTC“I had nothing yet to renounce” i.e. they said “go get a career and earn a bunch of money and *then* come back so you can renounce it and give us the money”, what it sounds like to me, lol.
Daniel Reed Miller
2024-05-23 03:43:38 +0000 UTC“I had nothing yet to renounce” by i.e. they said “go get a career and earn a bunch of money and *then* come back so you can renounce it and give us the money”, what it sounds like to me, lol.
Daniel Reed Miller
2024-05-23 03:43:06 +0000 UTCDr. K said in one of his interviews/discussions that his Guru has shunned him and won't return his calls and he is baffled. He also was turned away from becoming a monk because his Gurus did not think he wanted to become a monk for the right reasons. This whole exchange was creepy. But generally he is really good to listen to. He asks a million questions which does get annoying at times. I only listened to a few streams with Dr. K because I saw him on Destiny.
Sharmi
2024-05-23 03:37:39 +0000 UTCI interpreted this interaction when I first came across it maybe two years ago a bit more generously given Dr. K’s sense of humor and the other more playful interactions that I’ve seen he and his wife share over streams, along with their joint relationship advice video, which seemed to feature a healthy dynamic between the two, but after this DTG segment I can see it both ways now. If this was not playfulness while streaming and I was oblivious to this and other toxic behavior, then I wonder the extent of it. I’ll be interested to hear what you guys dredge up. As for posting this, I would just offer the same right to reply
Milquetoast Ramen
2024-05-23 03:01:36 +0000 UTCHaving said stupid things to my wife when I was upset I can sympathize with how Dr. K feels in the moment. However, rather than back track or apologize he appears to double down on his behaviour in the video and then his reference to his viewers as his children just adds to the creep factor. I think that makes it fair game.
Ross
2024-05-23 01:50:02 +0000 UTCI appreciate your sensitivity around this. Is their video still up and public? Oof. If so, I think it’s fine for you to post this.
Monica B.
2024-05-23 01:36:57 +0000 UTCPassive aggressive language is not considered normal in California. There may be a lot of cultural output and outspoken online type super rich guys who live here that use it, but it’s not the norm for us plebes!
Monica B.
2024-05-23 01:33:13 +0000 UTCI’m a 64 yearpsychotherapist with 30 years experience with couples. I feel like I have seen all varieties of workable love. In my opinion this guy is a lost soul who acts like a narcissistic piece of shit. Should you traffic in this? If he is a heavyweight influencer, yes.
Christopher Smith
2024-05-23 01:25:33 +0000 UTCIt's good that you're asking our permission. We're a little concerned at how disrespectful you are to us when you upload without asking. What do you think about that?....[deafening pause].... I'm serious.
Alex H
2024-05-23 01:05:27 +0000 UTCThanks Samantha, that's helpful to know.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-05-23 00:39:43 +0000 UTCYep your last sentence is the key point for me too.
Alex H
2024-05-23 00:39:21 +0000 UTCThere will be a full episode on Dr. K in a week or two that will focus on his output.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-05-23 00:38:57 +0000 UTCHe trained as a Jedi. Obvious
John Pohl
2024-05-22 23:36:02 +0000 UTCDepends on your readiness to get flooded by „oh dr K does so much good” comments. If you aren’t bothered by that, then go for it, the content really shows therapy speak used for camouflage
aneladgam_varelse
2024-05-22 22:13:28 +0000 UTCPassive-aggressive communication is considered normal in California? That's just wild.
Carl
2024-05-22 21:45:23 +0000 UTCA quick thought in response to your question of whether your video is okay given your discussion covered a couple’s interaction. It’s not cruel or exploitative. The man makes his living by positioning himself as an authority, and he commands respect in no small part through his loquacious speech which is strengthened by his deployment of the language of his discipline. His use of it on his wife in front of his audience was deliberate and his intention was to diminish and silence her. If it was an overheard conversation on the bus, that’s one thing. This vid was posted while he was working. The man is selling himself. It’s okay to comment on the product he’s pushing..
Aaron Holder
2024-05-22 21:40:51 +0000 UTC“I’d also like to thank my gurus in India, who guided me away from the material world, then back toward life afterward. I’d like to thank Dr. Nagendra and the folks at Prashanti, for introducing me to yoga and meditation, as well as my teachers at the Bihar School of Yoga. Last, I’d like to thank my Guruji for mantra and kundalini diksha, which are the gifts that I owe most of my worldly success to.” Excerpt From How to Raise a Healthy Gamer Alok Kanojia, MD, MPH
Steve Alexander
2024-05-22 21:14:17 +0000 UTC“I wanted to join the group and become a monk, but my teachers there rebuffed me. Becoming a monk was about renouncing your life, they explained. But I had earned nothing thus far, and therefore I had nothing yet to renounce. You’re just escaping, they told me. Go become successful first, they said, and come back when you’re ready to renounce that success.” Excerpt From How to Raise a Healthy Gamer Alok Kanojia
Steve Alexander
2024-05-22 21:12:22 +0000 UTCon this page, there is a link to Bihar School Of Yoga https://kanojiapsychiatry.com/about/ https://biharyoga.net/contact-us.php
Steve Alexander
2024-05-22 20:57:14 +0000 UTCThe comments are on public content, and occur within the context of interpersonal therapy-lite advice, so I'd say it's a very fair target. I also really liked how it opened into the wider topic of discourses and how they are often used for signalling and to gander status. It also touched on a real bug bear of mine: members of spiritual traditions who assume they can (or even should) talk about mental health and/or interpersonal relationships. I don't mean qualified people who are members of traditions within the context of that tradition (pastors, etc), I mean lay members who re-frame any encounter with mental health issues within their tradition and assume their tradition has the 'answers'. Quite apart from how inherently dangerous this is to do, almost all of the major spiritual traditions / religious doctrines have their origins from times when mental health was very poorly understood (like the Bronze age), and rarely address those issues directly. It also encourages followers of those traditions to use that language, as Matt pointed out, to beat people when they're down, and impose their own metaphysical beliefs on someone at their lowest point. In my far-too-much experience, anyhoo. (Dr K may not expressly do this, but it's a common enough bug bear to whinge about.)
Ymirsdreams
2024-05-22 20:55:52 +0000 UTCThe video gives some helpful context via body language, and as others have said - he clearly doesn't mind it being public at the potential expense of a relationship that supposedly matters to him. Could you connect with Mrs K and ask her directly perhaps?
Mindy Maniord
2024-05-22 20:51:53 +0000 UTCI am a regular listener to both you and Dr. K. I get your point about weaponizing therapy language. In the clips, he did admit that he was triggered by being called a beta-cuck, so this might just be him compensating for his hurt. Are there other incidents he treated people that way? If not, my sense is this one focus on this incident feels a little nick picking and out of proportion, considering Dr.K’s body of work. (I also wonder this might also be a good “right to reply” episode for a direct engagement.) So some options: 1) an episode of weaponizing therapy language. Less of the person but on the phenomenon. (Also similar to your pointing out of the passive aggressiveness of Eric Weinstein in the UFO episode. BTW, both of these types of conversations are very prevalent in California and kinda consider normal.) 2) a more holistic and complete episode on Dr. K. (Less focused on “beta-cuck” this just feel unnecessarily inflammatory.) Thanks for asking. Hope this helps.
mailman2024
2024-05-22 20:50:37 +0000 UTCWeird... I will point out another particularly popular medical podcast presented by a couple (Sawbones), have extremely awkward moments of bad vibes. I admire and revolt at once every time they address their communication issues on the podcast. Very PA. They could edit it out but they don't... Makes me wonder.
Michael Lewinger
2024-05-22 20:47:43 +0000 UTCCan't remember off the top of my head but I did find this article where it has the name of the ashram. Hope it helps! https://passionfru.it/dr-alok-kanojia-twitch-youtube-interview-1944/#:~:text=His%20father%2C%20an%20Indian%20immigrant,countryside%20monastery%20in%20southern%20India.
John
2024-05-22 20:39:22 +0000 UTCI don' t want to get into too many details, but when I heard this piece it was really illuminating for me for my own personal relationships and it caused me to think about some things differently. Not really the intention of DtG, probably, but this example in particular illustrated well the problematic behavior in a way that catches attention and makes one think.
Samantha Hines
2024-05-22 20:35:27 +0000 UTCGriffindor? BeniGesserate? Airbenders?
Ymirsdreams
2024-05-22 20:28:27 +0000 UTCI admire that you're concerned about the sensitivity of this. The way I see it, you're criticizing a video of a couple engaged in negotiating criticism in their relationship, which they published on YouTube for money. I notice you mainly commenting on this from the point of view that they purport to give psychological and relationship advice, and they're not modeling that in a particularly good way. I don't notice you criticising Dr K and Mrs K much outside of this incongruity. So I feel like it's fair. If they were offering advice on something else, say interior design, then I might see it as a little more expliotative / cruel.
Steve Alexander
2024-05-22 20:20:06 +0000 UTCYeah I get that though we tend to lean towards more context is better even if it is less algorithmically effective.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-05-22 20:12:12 +0000 UTCI think there's value in putting it out there. He's so insecure. And every couple has those weird, awkward, embarrassing exchanges (usually in private). But there's value in pointing out how and why this is a terrible example of how to behave. This is "What Not To Do." They're not acting as role models here.
Randy
2024-05-22 20:12:03 +0000 UTCHas he ever stated what monastery and which tradition?
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-05-22 20:06:43 +0000 UTCYeah I strongly disagree with this. How people communicate differs but this is absolutely weaponising therapy speak. They might have a super healthy relationship overall and it wouldn’t make this interaction less uncomfortable. I think it’s also naive to imagine that you are going to see someone in this situation openly express hurt. What I would expect is people to editorialize about how little discomfort they felt and how healthy the interaction was… which was exactly what happened.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-05-22 20:05:02 +0000 UTCI believe Dr. K said that he stayed in a monastery for a few months but they wouldn't allow him to be a monk. But I could be wrong
John
2024-05-22 20:03:11 +0000 UTCThat Dr. K interaction was pretty painful for me to listen to the first time. If you ask me, I wouldn't put up the video version, especially because it's specifically focusing on this one painful part. I mean, I can handle it and maybe even enjoy it, and feel bad about enjoying it. But it just seems a little too reality tv compared to your normal content.
brianshmrian
2024-05-22 20:02:59 +0000 UTCI listened to this when you originally released it. My reaction was that I think you guys are misreading what's on the surface, and not picking up on the deeper context (as I feel you've done more than once on this podcast). In this case it's more important to look at the arc of their interaction, and not individual statements. Different couples communicate different ways, They both make their feelings clear, they hear the other person, and in in the end they return to a positive baseline very quickly (as they are joking about it shortly thereafter, with no passive-aggressiveness.) That's just their style. It would be different if one person was hurt or quiet after, or if there was lingering tension. But there wasn't. It may not be the way YOU might communicate with your SO's, and that's fine. But it works for them. It's like sex and sexual kinks. It isn't about what's right or wrong, it's about what works for both of you.
Andy
2024-05-22 19:56:57 +0000 UTCYou might skip straight to the bit starting at 5:25. There's context that's helpful for the entire podcast episode, but it felt a bit over-detailed for watching just this clip.
Steve Alexander
2024-05-22 19:56:21 +0000 UTCHe's chosen to put her out as a public figure. He chose to embarrass her publicly on the stream and he's chosen to leave it up after the fact suggesting he stands by his behaviour. With the wife it could go either way. Perhaps she will be embarrassed having this made explicit or perhaps she will like to have the weirdness pointed out because all her husband gets is non stop praise to millions of viewers and streamers so she may feel she is missing something when actually most 'normal' people see the behaviour in the video as super disturbing. Depending on how often he does this behind the scenes (good chances he does it A LOT) it could be very "therapeutic" to her to know it's not universally viewed so positively...
Tasty3141
2024-05-22 19:44:59 +0000 UTCI can’t comment on cruelty, i subscribed to the patreon because i need relentless and cruel roasting of eric Weinstein
Mathias
2024-05-22 19:37:35 +0000 UTC
