Interview with Dan Wilson from Debunk the Funk *UNEDITED* (Video)
Added 2022-01-31 12:38:24 +0000 UTCWe have an extended discussion with Dr. Dan Wilson about his excellent channel debunking Covid misinformation on Youtube, the trials and tribulations of debunking content, the need for more effective science communication, and the origin of his amazing afro!
Was a great pleasure to speak with Dan and we engage in that IDW style back-patting because we genuinely feel his content deserves the praise. Recommend anyone who enjoyed our McCullough and Malone episodes check his channel out.
The video is unedited so includes some talk about editing but that's the cost of getting the episode the day it is recorded! Audio to follow soon.
Comments
Quick note on the impromtu "top 5" misinformation topics discussion: it struck me while listening to the subsequent discussion that there may be a missed opportunity in not distinguishing more (and adapting messaging to separately) the OG anti-vaxxers and the newly minted Covid anti-vaxxers. I realize that a lot of frustration surrounds spokespeople and others swimming in those waters trying to hide the true implication of their messaging (just asking questions, not anti-vaxx, just anti-mandate, etc.), but I do think that many, many people are *not* against the standard childhood vaccines -- not against the practice of vaccination but have still been swept up -- maybe largely based on political affiliation? -- into the anti-vaxx army around Covid. Maybe this is obvious, but I would like to think a divide-and-conquer messaging strategy that strongly makes the point that *only if you are generally against the very idea of vaccines* (one of the clear medical miracles of the last century or so) does it make any sense for you to be against the Covid vaccine. If you agree that vaccines in general are good (extremely hard to argue against based on evidence) then you are being had by a politically-driven propaganda campaign if you think the Covid vaccine is an exception. IF you think vaccines, in general, are bad, then so be it -- there is no arguing with magcial non-evidence-based thinking -- but I suspect it is an extreme minority position.
Tom Allison
2022-02-02 13:10:01 +0000 UTCSame thing happened to me regarding comments on the Q-Anonymous segment. My understanding was that Patreon relies on algorithms driven by keywords and has a pretty low tolerance for some combinations. I'm not certain whether all removals get reviewed or if one has to request it, but my comments found their way back to the discussion about a week later, fwiw.
Tom Allison
2022-02-02 11:28:03 +0000 UTCThis was a terrific conversation! I've been following Dan Wilson for awhile, so I think I'll stick with that take for more than 5 minutes ;). I wanted to hone in on the 101:15 mark where Matt crystalizes the point about the potential corrupting influence of having an online persona and message as ones main gig when it comes to guru-ing. Do you think this is already covered by the Gurometer -- or do you think there is some way of working it in/adding it to it? I definitely think its a rich area of analysis and look forward to your working it out as you continue.
Tom Allison
2022-02-02 11:13:32 +0000 UTCMy comments specifically reference gain of function research *of concern*. That distinction is very important yet often lost in the few public discussions of the issue. Many scientists have been warning against such research for years, some even for decades, some even going so far as to assert that there is no justification for it given the extreme risks (see Marc Lipsitch's comment in my first post, and Cambridge Working Group). It is understandable that virologists engaging in GOFROC could have a bias towards it and could tend to downplay the risks. That is why IMO their opinions warrant particularly close scrutiny. Lab workers can have accidents even in high-containment labs, as shown in the recent Taiwan accident https://thebulletin.org/2022/01/a-lab-assistant-involved-in-covid-19-research-in-taiwan-exposed-110-people-after-becoming-infected-at-work/ Filippa Lentzos on controls in globally proliferating biolabs: "“Right now,” Lentzos said, “these labs are spreading into other parts of the world, where you have different kinds of regimes, more authoritarian regimes, for instance, where the concept of openness is particularly challenging.”" (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/23/magazine/covid-lab-leak.html) . I for one am not optimistic about the effectiveness of controls in any country - much less authoritarian ones like China - given the competition for research grants and the all-too-human tendency to bend rules to achieve hoped-for outcomes.
Karen
2022-02-02 08:22:58 +0000 UTCThat said, one thing about science -- besides the good stuff of a passion for debate and pain-staking review -- is that there are sometimes BIG egos involved and, although intellectual, debates can be metaphorical blood sports. A certain arrogance in manner can seep in purely as a defensive maneuver against the all-too-ready attacks from colleagues. While I very much hope that the sort of "exposing how science really operates" that TWiV practices is an overall positive (and I think they are generally VERY good at maintaining high levels of civility), I can imagine how listeners who have come to different conclusions from other sources might feel a certain dismissiveness when those topics are discussed amongst seasoned researchers. Also, there are very real pathologies of power-hunger and willlingness-to-cut-corners in academia as much, if not more, than in other corners of the larger culture - it can make for a certain prickliness in conversations that someone outside its culture may well misunderstand.
Tom Allison
2022-02-02 07:47:39 +0000 UTCI'm afraid I disagree about the level of your concern, here. Have you ever worked in a facility that handles pathogens or are you basing your concern on reading about the subject and its surface plausibility? (I have not worked in a BSL-4 lab but other biomedical labs as a doctoral candidate so as to have a feel for how well, or not, these issues are addressed and a respect for how seriously the protocols are taken in labs that do handle the really dangerous stuff.) I don't mean to be dismissive, but the folks on TWiV are the real deal in terms of practicing scientists and they have a much more informed "feel" for this stuff than most of us... They don't hesitate to disagree with each other frequently. Honestly, I cannot think of a more informed group to be discussing these issues. There ARE very good arguments for gain-of-function research and I would expect to hear them voiced on TWiV -- along with any actual plausible concerns. We should be able to create the protocols to safely study very dangerous things. Do you disagree with that statement?
Tom Allison
2022-02-02 07:36:36 +0000 UTCI'm as baffled as you are. My first comment simply disappeared about an hour or two after I posted it yesterday.
Karen
2022-02-02 06:28:49 +0000 UTC?
Christopher Kavanagh
2022-02-02 02:11:03 +0000 UTCSuperb interview. Very grateful that the misinformation that has been circulating on social media for the last two years is being refuted with reliable data that is being highlighted and shared by scientists such as Dr Wilson. Very difficult to determine the tragic impact that the misinformation and scaremongering around the vaccines has had upon people, which is why interviews such as this one really do help. Thank you Chris, Matt and Dr Wilson for taking the time to combat the misinformation.
Louise
2022-02-01 16:25:27 +0000 UTCI love both the DTG and the DTF podcasts. That said, and at the risk of repeat censorship: Racaniello of TWIW downplays the severe risks of gain-of-function-research-of-concern (GOFROC), which plausibly played a role in the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic. Downplaying or denying the risks of GOFROC puts us at grave peril, particularly given the global proliferation of BSL-4 labs (as pointed out in Feb 2019 by Lynn Klotz https://thebulletin.org/2019/02/human-error-in-high-biocontainment-labs-a-likely-pandemic-threat/#:~:text=Incidents%20causing%20potential%20exposures%20to,Biosafety%20Level%203)%20and%20BSL4.&text=Such%20releases%20are%20fairly%20likely,now%20carrying%20out%20this%20research. ) Marc Lipsitch, a prominent epidemiologist, in 2016: "GOF is undeniably a valuable technique for microbiological research, including applied research with direct benefits for public health. This fact is accepted by most, if not all, critics of GOFROC or potential pandemic pathogen research. When weighing the benefits of GOFROC against those of alternative approaches [25], the issue is not whether GOF can be useful, which it often can be, but whether the risks of GOFROC are justified by unique benefits that cannot be achieved by safe approaches. Of the examples of public health or clinical benefits cited by Kilianski et al, some are not the result of GOFROC. Of those that are, the surveillance benefits at least can and have been achieved through alternative, safer means." https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/214/8/1284/2218764?login=false
Karen
2022-02-01 15:52:36 +0000 UTCWondering why my comment was removed ...
Karen
2022-02-01 15:08:39 +0000 UTCThat was a great conversation, thanks for putting it up. You should pull a Sam Harris and release it as a PSA!
Ciaran Mullan
2022-02-01 09:01:31 +0000 UTCLove it! Great choices!
Guruspod 2
2022-01-31 23:50:05 +0000 UTCFor myself I’m definitely skimping on providing the moral structure. A real time saver!
Guruspod 2
2022-01-31 23:49:03 +0000 UTCAnother great interview! I stumbled upon Dr Campbell when I was in Italy over Christmas silently stewing and panicking over omicron, fearing I would get it and not be able to return home due to quarantine regulations (I didn't get it and I did return home), and Dr C made me feel better about it in general. The more I watched him, though, and read the comments section, the more I realized that there was something conspiratorial about him, and I'm glad to have that confirmed by you smart folks. I have long since unsubscribed to his channel, and now I'm happily subscribed to Debunk the Funk (as well as to TWiV). Thanks for all the reality-based, quality info! Glad to have found my epistemic trust network
Jennifer Nelson
2022-01-31 15:23:30 +0000 UTCDitto, I was thinking similarly recently! Cheers guys
Allan Hutton
2022-01-31 13:51:27 +0000 UTCMatt and Chris: You two are the hardest-working men in the guru-sphere! No kidding, you just keep churning out stuff! How are you finding time to teach, entertain your wives, provide moral structure for your progeny??? Forget the Patreon perks; I feel like I owe you a massive check just for your beyond-the-call human-hours. Many thanks for so much quality and quantity output.
Sian Gibby
2022-01-31 13:33:41 +0000 UTCAlong with you guys, Conspirituality, Merseyside Skeptics & others, Dr. Wilson has been instrumental in getting me through the misinformation shitstorm of these last 2 years. So excited for this epic mashup, thank you!
Rasterisk
2022-01-31 12:55:55 +0000 UTC
