Conversation on Rebel Wisdom with David Fuller on IDW criticism
Added 2021-08-09 22:36:10 +0000 UTCHey everyone,
The video attached is an interview I (Chris) recorded with David Fuller a few weeks ago. It was released as a members only video for the Rebel Wisdom channel so please don’t share the link publicly.
Thought the discussion might be of interest to some of you as it touches on a lot of issues we’ve covered on the podcast and in recent interviews.
I think David’s an interesting and thoughtful actor in the ‘alternative media’ space even when I disagree with his decisions/arguments. We likely will cover Rebel Wisdom content in the future too, so you can consider this preparation!
P.S. This is recorded after recovering from a cold at around 1am, hence the voice.
Comments
What a great talk with some interesting tidbits (Rubin on "free speech", Weinstein on Timbah etc.) =) Glad you posted it
F
2021-08-26 19:06:59 +0000 UTCI remember Timbah flagged up Eric's 'insightful' take about Kung Fu Panda! In hindsight, even that take is a reflection of Eric's own self aggrandizement!
A Mug's Game
2021-08-25 11:24:40 +0000 UTCOh my god I knew that but just hadn’t put that together until now!
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-08-25 06:05:57 +0000 UTCBtw, I wonder why Eric loved the Timbah on Toast videos on Dave Rubin. Because at that time Timbah had a relatively favorable impression of Eric Weinstein and he even gave Eric a few compliments in that video. If there had been any slight criticism of Eric at all, would he have hated it? Even if the rest of the video was the exact same?
A Mug's Game
2021-08-24 23:02:55 +0000 UTCRegarding laundering the IDW by not criticizing them hard enough... for me at least I don't find that to be the case. With a podcast like IDSG I find it interesting but can't help feeling they have a constant ideological axe to grind to the point where at times it feels like I'm listening to a more intelligent Dave Rubin. They seem to think that just HEARING an opinion that isn't far left is just a gateway drug to eventually becoming a Nazi... heaven forbid anybody actually HOLDS one of those positions. Perhaps in the future I will end up seeing they were right all along but it's going to be a longer process than necessary because the tone is very off putting. It feels like it would be EXHAUSTING to be around them. But your podcast is way more like the sensible mate at the pub who gently and with good cheer explains why X is full of shit and after you're in a better mood and wondering why you ever took the guru so seriously to begin with.
Tasty3141
2021-08-21 18:34:50 +0000 UTCI have a tendency to waffle. Fair is fair!
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-08-17 14:23:13 +0000 UTCI really enjoyed this although I did find it super annoying every time he would cut Chris off
Samantha Rae
2021-08-17 11:52:58 +0000 UTCDavid's reaction to Gorski not wanting to debate Weinstein is pretty terrible. We know from the climate change debates the damage that can be done from sitting someone who pushes conspiracies down and say they are on equal footing. Truth is the lab leak hypothesis has always been entertained in the primary literature, nothing is intellectually gained from having an expert sit down with a conspiracist to debate it. The conspiracy people gain a lot from those interactions. It isn't gatekeeping, it is learning from history and trying to grow. Even if you disagree and want academics to engage more in public discourse, it is far from "stupid" the way David put it. He impressed me with some degree of humility in first part of this conversation, but completely lost me there.
Adam Session
2021-08-15 18:32:55 +0000 UTCIt may not be exactly David's reasoning, but how about this argument: Given it's not possible to have a thorough investigation that satisfies reasonable people that there was no lab leak we should adjust our risk level accordingly.
Thomas Clarke
2021-08-10 20:48:35 +0000 UTCWhat I think he meant there was that if a lab leak is a plausible scenario due to the research being conducted and inadequate safety precautions that those facts are concerning regardless of whether or not there was a lab leak. Sort of arguing the bigger issue is our research practices and priorities. I think his assessment is wrong but that does seem a discussion that it is possible to have and which you could reach different positions on within reason.
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-08-10 20:07:34 +0000 UTCChris, he said one thing that really bothered me, ie that it doesn't matter whether or not the lab leak is true because it *could* have been true. I think that's really poor reasoning, like the hypothesis is itself being used as evidence of its own validity which just sounds fundamentally wrong. There have been alot of exaggerations and conspiracy hypothesizing online about the lab leak and it's really hard to sort the genuine concerns, if any, from all the noise. It leads me to think he's a bad faith actor. He said that in the context of arguing that this topic is very consequential with a lot of implications, I think that's true but it also cuts both ways. He sounds like he's giving himself an excuse to push what might turn out to be a conspiracy theory, even if the evidence ultimately contradicts it. I was already worried the lab leak theory has entered the point where folks who believe it may never be un-convinced, sort of like with 2020 election conspiracies, and David is providing an example of it with what he said to you. I think the truth doesn't matter to him, so I think it will be impossible to debate the lab leak with him in good faith.
Kieran Ryan
2021-08-10 19:56:36 +0000 UTCHere you go: https://medium.com/rebel-wisdom/sensemaking-gatekeeping-talking-with-fascists-fda652608f0e
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-08-10 19:10:20 +0000 UTCI feel out of the loop, what is the Jordan Hall fiasco? Is there a link for that discussion? I am aware of propertianism, I know someone that started out as libertarian and went down the properterianism route
MaxPlan
2021-08-10 16:53:19 +0000 UTCThis may be splitting hairs but I don’t think it’s so much tolerance for heterodox ideas as it is liking heterodoxy for heterodoxy’s sake along with giving too much slack to people with whom he has personal relationships. The combination of these two preferences leads to a style of presentation that gives the illusion of debate where there really isn’t any. This would be entertaining (and possibly even thought provoking) if real human lives weren’t at stake.
Joel H. Dinolt
2021-08-10 16:13:48 +0000 UTCYeah I think it was more than a month ago. The YT upload states "a month ago". Perhaps this conversation helped him get some perspective?
William LEGRAIN
2021-08-10 13:39:48 +0000 UTCIt was filmed at around 1am so when room lights was on Iooked like a deep throat silhouette. There is no light just glare from screens!
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-08-10 11:33:09 +0000 UTCI guess this was recorded a few weeks back? It seems like David has changed his tune on Bret 'n' co, at least based on Twitter comments.
Alex A
2021-08-10 08:42:32 +0000 UTCI use Youtube Premium which allows you to collapse the Youtube app and continue to listen.
Alex A
2021-08-10 08:39:32 +0000 UTCWisdom are dangerous. They platform without context and leave the door wide open for bad faith actors. It is deeply disingenuous and sums up why I find these “just asking questions” outlets so deeply disturbing.
Charlotte Goodall
2021-08-10 07:44:07 +0000 UTCThere was a moment where David raised the Troubles, to try to make the case for platforming terrible people as having “dialogue “. Chris immediately pointed out that the context was an agreed peace process where all parties had accepted the framework. This is exactly why platforms like Rebel
Charlotte Goodall
2021-08-10 07:42:13 +0000 UTCDid you purposely film yourself in that lighting to better match David's setup? I like to imagine he had to ask you to turn off some lights and get up close to one desk lamp before he started the recording.
Nick Brouwer
2021-08-10 07:19:14 +0000 UTCAlso, he did raise the issue with his audience: https://medium.com/rebel-wisdom/sensemaking-gatekeeping-talking-with-fascists-fda652608f0e Whether you think he covered it adequately is a different issue.
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-08-10 05:51:26 +0000 UTCI agree with the criticism that the level of tolerance for 'heterodox' views that David and others have is too high but I also think it is important when criticism comes from people with his sympathies as the criticism is more likely to be heeded. I believe he has some articles coming out which are more directly critical of Bret. You could argue that took too long but it's not like Bret's done yet so I'll be glad to see it.
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-08-10 05:49:42 +0000 UTCI think I put that argument to David. Specifically, in regards to the conversation with Jordan Hall?
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-08-10 05:44:48 +0000 UTCThis was great. Nice to see people just discuss things more openly. It's crazy how much this sphere of podcasts/independent media has changed, this one reminded me of the earlier days when people didn't worry so much about who was listening and offending friends and audience was not on everyone's mind. Does Vegas have the odds on the lab leak theory?
William LEGRAIN
2021-08-10 03:56:38 +0000 UTCThank you so much for this! As a fan and long time watcher of Rebel Wisdom, I look forward to DTG taking on their material.
Jeffrey Schwinghammer
2021-08-10 03:25:39 +0000 UTCIt’s depressing to listen to this. This guy has more passion for The Discourse than he does for the fact that someone he is friends with has turned out to be a malignant narcissist who’s going to get people killed.
Joel H. Dinolt
2021-08-10 02:51:05 +0000 UTCAnother right wing reactionary pretending to be on the left😡🤢
sherna perez
2021-08-10 01:27:50 +0000 UTCI’m sorry but Davis is a massive coward. He’s afraid of upsetting his friends rather than being honest with his audience. The whole Jordan Hall fiasco just demonstrates that he’s got no skin in the game. Some of us aren’t that fortunate for us it’s not academic. That’s what Daniel was trying to explain to you guys! But it seems you still don’t get it!
sherna perez
2021-08-10 01:26:16 +0000 UTCIt is IDW leaning but David is probably the most critical interviewer in that space.
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-08-10 01:12:39 +0000 UTCI’m intrigued to listen to this. My assumption was that that show was IDW leaning to begin with. I watched a bit of the episode where he was kind of waffling around trying to discuss Brett’s antivax stuff. Seemed like he felt the need to tiptoe on eggshells around the subject, and the comments were still pretty reactionary.
Evan
2021-08-09 23:22:48 +0000 UTCThanks for this.
William LEGRAIN
2021-08-09 23:04:19 +0000 UTCThere will be for our content. Just finished editing of the Robert Wright interview today but this we don’t own.
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-08-09 22:55:42 +0000 UTCCan I just second someone else’s request there maybe be an audio version of these patron videos? If possible and not too big a hassle.
bron stoll-engelsen
2021-08-09 22:44:38 +0000 UTC
