Suleiman the Magnificent - V: Slave of God - Extra History
Added 2016-04-08 09:56:01 +0000 UTC"Fate saw the jewel in me, and pawed the heart apart to have it." Suleiman arrives at his darkest hour.
Comments
I wanted to point out that Justinian also wasn't that nice to Belisarius, but as far as Suleiman choosing the worse course of action, I do tend to agree. Between "being a jerk" and "killing your friend," the first one is what I'd prefer MY friends to choose.
Extra History
2016-04-13 00:18:53 +0000 UTCThere should be a wee little arrow under my comment for a direct reply, but Patreon just updated their comments system so it may be bugged on some browsers. Anyway. For me the ideal case would be to have a bunch of focused history channels like our friends at the Great War Channel to give these topics the in depth coverage they deserve! Although I have to say, a lot of universities release their lectures as podcasts which is a pretty good way to get that thorough insight as well.
Extra History
2016-04-13 00:17:09 +0000 UTCReally wish I could reply to your comment... but aye. If we were to cover everything about these guys and the nusances involved, we'll be here for years I'm sure.
Tempestfury
2016-04-12 22:12:14 +0000 UTCIf I could program at all, I'd write a game about the Great Siege of Malta, because it's just such a phenomenal battle, full of great characters and moments of greatness and tragedy, heroism and horror. If I found a developer I trusted, I'd offer to write the script pro bono. Heck, if I had the funds, I'd fund a series just to have the EH team give Malta a wider audience.
Jim McGeehin
2016-04-12 21:59:10 +0000 UTCWe are open to doing it more in the future, although at this point I'm not convinced we can go back and do it for Suleiman. Maybe, but it'd take some ingenuity! As I said up above though, we would consider fleshing out his other exploits through one-offs. I really want to be sparing with the super-long series, though, because I look at all the places we haven't even touched on (North or South America, Australia, China, India, Russia, and many, many more) as well as how we've only scratched the surface of the places we already have been, and it makes me itchy to think that one subject might take up two blocs when there's still so much to explore!
Extra History
2016-04-12 20:54:24 +0000 UTCwhich just makes suleiman look even worse by comparison. because while we can be pretty certain that bellisarius would never have unsurped justin, there was a possibility that he could have done so. as you say, he had the army's support. compare this to ibrahim, who was a christian greek. he could never have unsurped the ottoman throne, and if he had tried, he wouldnt have lasted a day, even if he did manage to kill suleimans entire family. yet in the end, justin, despite the many problems they had, let him retire in peace, while suleiman forced ibrahim into a position he very much didnt want due to fear for his life, where in the end he had him murdered.
Winters King
2016-04-12 20:44:51 +0000 UTCExecute no, strip of property and imprison - yes. I would certainly say that Justinian takes the better course here - he was able to restore Belisarius's property and free him later, whereas Suleiman could never bring Ibrahim back and regretted it the rest of his life - but neither ruler really manages to keep faith with their top general/advisor. There is, of course, a long history of such people betraying their ruler in the end, which doesn't make it easy to believe the guy who says "trust me!" when he has your entire army at his beck and call. And there's even a legend (which I don't believe to be true, for various reasons) that Justinian ordered Belisarius's eyes put out and made him a beggar at the Gates of Rome. Even though the truth of that story is very doubtful, the fact that it came into being shows just how far the relationship between even Justinian and Belisarius had deteriorated by the end. It is also a reflection of its time, buuuuut, that's a story for another day!
Extra History
2016-04-12 19:12:51 +0000 UTCI'm glad you enjoyed it! It would have been interesting to see how things would have gone with Mustafa heading up the empire.
Extra History
2016-04-12 19:05:33 +0000 UTCMaybe if the Habsburgs get their own series! There's always more to history than we can tell in 8 minute animated shorts, but that's why we do Lies and encourage people to look more into the subject on their own, to find those details and make their own judgments about what happened.
Extra History
2016-04-12 19:01:41 +0000 UTCThe sobriquet "Magnificent" was given to him by the Europeans, who'd had to face him in battle often enough to respect his prowess (even if it was sometimes a grudging respect). The Turks actually called him "the Lawgiver" and counted his administrative reforms (not to mention his beautiful poetry) as some of his highest achievements. Plus, as Halil said, Suleiman both administered and expanded an already enormous empire, which I think we show a map of in Episode 6. Even though we've seen some of the times he was turned back in this series, keep in mind that he only got turned back after successfully marching across whole territories and taking most of them with ease. Plus, holding onto all that land - especially when you are surrounded on all sides by other kingdoms that would love to take it back from you while your attention's elsewhere - is a huge feat, though it's very rarely lauded as one.
Extra History
2016-04-12 18:59:03 +0000 UTCCurse you, foreshadowing!
Extra History
2016-04-12 18:52:43 +0000 UTCWe are so lucky to have such brilliant artists. Time and again, we send them scripts I think are going to be impossible to bring to life and they send back drafts with the most brilliant little details that make it all work.
Extra History
2016-04-12 18:52:33 +0000 UTCYep, we're going to see those Knights come back for a stint next episode! And Suleiman's final siege of Vienna - sort of.
Extra History
2016-04-12 18:51:51 +0000 UTCDo think we should of split the tale in two in order to go into more detail. Honestly I doubt people will mind if you do it more often to fully tell a story. Hell, why not put it to vote and see what the pateron's decide about it? Should help you decide how exactly to handle the fact that this method of storytelling, which I do love, was focused on his miltary exploits, as well as possible problems in the future.
Tempestfury
2016-04-12 18:49:12 +0000 UTCDo think we should of split the tale in two in order to go into more detail. Honestly I doubt people will mind if you do it more often to fully tell a story. Hell, why not put it to vote and see what the pateron's decide about it? Should help you decide how exactly to handle the fact that this method of storytelling, which I do love, was focused on his miltary exploits, as well as possible problems in the future.
Tempestfury
2016-04-12 18:49:11 +0000 UTCThe details wound up being more complicated than we could fit into this series, but he did have his reasons for suspecting both Ibrahim and Mustafa of treachery (and so did Roxelana). Perhaps he acted too swiftly, but then again, if he hadn't acted, might it have plunged his empire into a disastrous civil war?
Extra History
2016-04-12 18:23:00 +0000 UTCLike Theodora, Roxelana was one of Suleiman's chief advisors and she was very adept at managing the intrigues of the court. She'd held him fend off so many threats that you can understand why, when she started to identify Ibrahim as a traitor in waiting, Suleiman would trust her judgment. And since he acted on her suspicions without Ibrahim openly acting against him, who knows? She may have been right.
Extra History
2016-04-12 18:13:41 +0000 UTCOn the other hand, it also says soomething about a person when they can look past the label of "slave" and recognize the value in someone like Ibrahim or even Roxelana.
Extra History
2016-04-12 18:09:36 +0000 UTCI did, too. ;) That was just the right spot for him!
Extra History
2016-04-12 18:07:50 +0000 UTCThose cracks were long developing, but when the strain finally got to be enough... people broke.
Extra History
2016-04-12 18:07:39 +0000 UTCWe're experimenting! We may use it again but it won't be the default for every series.
Extra History
2016-04-12 18:05:37 +0000 UTCSadly true. :(
Extra History
2016-04-12 18:05:34 +0000 UTCHe did have his reasons - there were genuine reasons to suspect betrayal from all the folks he suspected might be betraying him - and you kinda don't want to be the guy who gets stabbed in the back by his closest friends and family. Then again, you also don't really want to be the guy who executes his closest friends and family so... sucks for him either way.
Extra History
2016-04-12 18:05:04 +0000 UTCIf only Suleiman had been stranded on Dagobah. He probably would have just annexed it, though.
Extra History
2016-04-12 18:04:03 +0000 UTCTurns out that actually being a ruler is more complicated (and more fraught with threats of betrayal) than the idealism of a young man can really understand. :\
Extra History
2016-04-12 17:55:24 +0000 UTCHe certainly executed fewer viziers than his father, so he's got that going for him!
Extra History
2016-04-12 17:33:13 +0000 UTCYeah, we've kinda been on a roll of sad endings lately, haven't we? Except John Snow. That one worked out okay!
Extra History
2016-04-12 17:32:47 +0000 UTCWe all do agree with that, and in retrospect I can't help but wonder if he even deserved a Justinian style treatment of having his life split into two different series. As it was, six episodes wasn't enough to address his er, Magnificence. We had to look for a way to create a narrative thread that would pull us through the narrative of his entire life, and that wound up being his military exploits. We might address it in Lies, and we've also discussed doing one-off episodes that sort of "fill in" the importance of some of his other accomplishments, but nothing's decided yet.
Extra History
2016-04-12 17:32:04 +0000 UTCNEARLY? Nearly brought you to tears? Oh, well then, we'll get you next time...
Extra History
2016-04-12 17:27:25 +0000 UTCNearly brought me to tears. Great job EH Team.
Aaron Voigt
2016-04-12 15:37:29 +0000 UTCWhile I really enjoy the framing device of this Extra History series and the coverage of the battles, I find that it is woefully skewed towards talking about Suleiman's military accomplishments over his patronage of the arts and sciences. I do hope this is touched upon more in the final episode. Hopefully, the lies episode covers such topics as the naming of Roxelana/Hürrem Sultan (who was probably named Anastasia, then took on a Muslim name), Ibrahim's support of Sehzade's succession, the conspiring of Rustem Pasha, and how this series make Suleiman seem like a paranoid and ill-tempered ruler who hardly deserved the name "Magnificent" (maybe address issues with pacing in the lies episode, and talk about how compressing some narratives distorts the events).
Peter Melling
2016-04-12 05:30:36 +0000 UTCAlas, even the Magnificent succumbs to man's worst enemy: Old age. Man, history is full of bittersweet endings.
Hung Nguyen
2016-04-10 18:48:43 +0000 UTCEven given all of his "darkest hour", I imagine Suleiman was far more benevolent than nearly any other sultans before him.
Dmitry
2016-04-10 14:56:27 +0000 UTCSuleiman wanted to redress father's cruel rule and arbitrary execution of his advisers. Suleiman didn't want his sons to die in a succession struggle. Suleiman kills two of his sons and favorite adviser and personal friend out of suspicion. facepalm
Connor Raikes
2016-04-10 07:06:10 +0000 UTC"Fear leads to Anger. Anger leads to Hate. Hate...leads to suffering." - Yoda
The Cayute
2016-04-09 15:34:20 +0000 UTCSuleiman sure is a grumpy guy.
Fidgety
2016-04-09 15:27:54 +0000 UTCThis way of story telling through reminiscence, is it just something you wanted to try or you know that Suleiman was like this? I'm just wondering if you'll do this more often or if it is just in character. As always, amazing work :) Thank you
Martin Ockovsky
2016-04-09 10:33:37 +0000 UTCEven the Magnificent can fall to anger and hated...
Tempestfury
2016-04-09 09:05:33 +0000 UTCWhat a complete 180. To be so carefree, than to have one crack break a person to the point of seemingly jumping at shadows.
Aaron hutchinson
2016-04-09 08:41:35 +0000 UTCGiven how serious the episode is, I hesitate to say... I really enjoyed the Walpole Easter Egg.
Kathyrne
2016-04-09 05:47:47 +0000 UTCIt was more of seeds of doubt being fed and watered under a lense tainted by Roxelana. For once the lense you view a person through has been colored it is hard to wipe it clean. Especially when you're now looking at every little thing they do and say under a microscope. Humans are funny things. It is far easier to mistrust someone than to believe in them. Especially since Suleiman was getting older and he felt it. Doubt, fear, and insecurity; it is a potent, unstable, and disastrous concoction that has blown apart kingdom after kingdom throughout time.
Robbie the Gnome
2016-04-09 00:11:02 +0000 UTCWhat a difference one moment of mistrust makes.
Michael Jebbett
2016-04-08 23:56:09 +0000 UTCOh and on Game of thrones the Ottoman invasion of the Safavids is almost identical to the first Targarian invasion of Dorn. but with less dragons.
paul staber
2016-04-08 23:19:34 +0000 UTCa lot of it is pretty normal for the ottomans, as they said it was traditional to kill off all but one of the heirs to the throne "to prevent civil war" I cant imagine what growing up in an environment like that would do to someone especially given how big some sultans families got having say 5 brothers and knowing from an early age THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE would have to create some psychotics and they are probably the ones who are most likely to survive.
paul staber
2016-04-08 23:13:55 +0000 UTCIt says something about a person when there only friends are there slaves.
paul staber
2016-04-08 22:48:03 +0000 UTCThis was some Game of Thrones style crap. Suleiman went off the deep end
Curtis Fric
2016-04-08 22:25:13 +0000 UTCHe did very well at Djerba. Dragut was a feared Muslim corsair and quite adept at naval combat. Unfortunately, Romegas and Dragut would never have an epic pirate battle.
Jim McGeehin
2016-04-08 16:40:16 +0000 UTCMustafa's death has a fascinating little conspiracy theory. Rustem Pasha was sympathetic to Roxelana, and bold, popular Mustafa would be far harder to influence than Bayezid or Selim. Nevertheless, this would start the notion that the sultan's heir should come from the sultan's favored consort as opposed to other qualifications, and would herald the beginning of a long line of incompetent, decadent, and indulgent sultans. It was touched on a little bit, but Suleiman had a lot of fortune with a trade monopoly to East Asia, which the Portugese circumvented when they found the Cape of Good Hope usuable, and a Portugese-Ottoman conflict flared up in multiple locales in the Indian and Pacific Oceans. It looks like the next episode is going to be the wars in the Mediterranean, where our old friends the Knights make their reappearance, and we see the battles of Djerba and Malta, the latter of which is one of my all-time favorite battles of the era. Beware a warrior monk of any stripe.
Jim McGeehin
2016-04-08 16:31:59 +0000 UTCIt's true what they say apparently: it's easier after the first time. When your first order optimal strategy is assassinate anyone who disobey you it's easy to make mistakes. I want to say that this was an incredibly visually impressive episodes. Choices like making Suleiman's hat into a ragecanoe when he's angry and the angry green pea idea demon were marvelous visuals. You guys do so much with such a simple art style.
Robbie the Gnome
2016-04-08 16:22:17 +0000 UTCEven without everything Halil said, reforming laws isn't as easy as it sounds.
Timothy McLean
2016-04-08 15:45:47 +0000 UTCI just knew bad things were going to happen when I saw the thumbnail...
Kyle Clark
2016-04-08 15:35:16 +0000 UTCIt's not so easy to manage big armies and large lands. He was sultan for 46 years. This series just captures the red line and not the details. He increased the land from 6.5 million sqm to 14.9 million. It's also what other people call him from impression. He didn't call himself that really. His life also shows many issues of the ottoman empire.
Halil Köklü
2016-04-08 11:01:04 +0000 UTCTo be perfectly honest, I don't see why they call him the magnificent. All I see is a borderline madman who would have achieved nothing if he didn't have hundreds of thousands of men to throw at every breach. Did he even have a battle where he didn't outnumber his opponent 5 to 1? I guess he did do those law reforms though...
Michael Waisfeld
2016-04-08 10:53:57 +0000 UTCHey why did y'all not mention that the Hapsburgs got a slice of Hungary in the peace treaty.
E
2016-04-08 10:35:54 +0000 UTCRoxelane's power and the execution of Mustafa were the turning point for the rise of the ottoman empire. It would never really recover and be led by weak sultans except a few like Sultan Abdulhamid ll. Very good episode. Well explained but still entertained. Thx
Halil Köklü
2016-04-08 10:24:12 +0000 UTCsay what you want about justinian and belisarius relationship. Justinian never executed the man that brought him victories upon victories. while he might not have trsuted him as much as he should have, he never had a man that was loyal to him until the last rewarded for his work, with execution out of hate or suspision.
Winters King
2016-04-08 10:14:05 +0000 UTC
