UNCUT - The Outcast (TNG S5E17) | Star Trek Journey 224
Added 2025-02-06 18:38:54 +0000 UTC
Comments
Jovet is correct. I've loved Trek since the 1970s. I've been conservative my entire life. Trek's so-called progressiveness has never been a problem for me. Woke tenets are not progressive. They're very arguably regressive. The values espoused in TOS, TNG, VOY, and ENT are NOT the same as those we see in modern Trek. Many of the values that have come from Picard's mouth are antithetical to values espoused by the Woke. For one thing, Trek before the current iteration was indeed colorblind. No angst, or hatred, or eternal grievance was ever espoused toward the descendants of those who caused harm based on race, or whatever. That ain't the case with the Woke in this world of the 21st Century. In fact, Woke doctrine declares that to be COLORBLIND is racist. And merit was always valued in Trek. Now, grievance ideology has largely replaced it.
Tom Occhipinti
2025-03-02 20:43:56 +0000 UTCThey’re being a bigot.
Ragnarok
2025-03-02 19:44:15 +0000 UTCThe two are not the same thing, though.
Jovet
2025-02-13 01:56:52 +0000 UTCthis shoots down anyone who cries trek is now “woke”. trek has always been progressive.
David Marcoot
2025-02-12 16:15:01 +0000 UTC@paultardspambot Language does evolve that way. But, in my experience, it isn't usually out of necessity. It's out of ignorance and stupidity. Ignorant/stupid people started saying "literally" to mean figuratively because the groupthink makes them believe it sounds intelligent or hip. But it's still incorrect. Eventually, the mass misuse will cause its meaning to shift, but that's something to be resisted, not celebrated or encouraged.
Jovet
2025-02-11 01:18:56 +0000 UTCYour dad's wrong. There's tons of it. Some of it is more egregiously preachy than the rest.
Jovet
2025-02-11 01:12:59 +0000 UTCBiological beings don't have a gender.
Jovet
2025-02-11 01:11:56 +0000 UTCThat’s because every group or classification of people is actually made up of individuals with their own experiences and motives. Not a monolith as usually thought of for convenience.
Josh (Target Audience)
2025-02-10 13:15:28 +0000 UTCI think since they were metaphors for treatments that were ineffective and run by quacks, they would have been better to show that their version of “successful” really hollowed out Everything about a person, not just their gender. Have her respond to Riker in a monotone emotionless voice that makes data seem downright melodramatic by comparison. Perhaps seem distant, barely there and not even making eye contact while speaking, and perhaps not caring about any of the art or flowers that were appreciated for their beauty earlier All of this is with the benefit of hindsight, but I think that would make the point better then it both working and in such a short time frame.
Todd “Canuck” Schmuck
2025-02-09 23:53:54 +0000 UTCWhile it can be frustrating sometimes(The term “literally” becoming more about hyperbole rather then accuracy does bug me), there are plenty of examples of that in history. The one that springs to mind most is how originally the term “decimated” in Roman times meant to be reduced by one tenth, or 10%. For a long time now though, it has come to describe great reduction or destruction DOWN to one tenth/10%. You hear a platoon was “decimated” and you think “only 1 in 10 survived”. The confusion really comes when you have split meanings, where half of people use older interpretations and half use the newer ones. That leads to confusion and leads to miscommunication.
Todd “Canuck” Schmuck
2025-02-09 23:37:04 +0000 UTCI give a lot of credit to the writers, especially considering the limitations they were forced to work with. With Star Trek being a syndicated show and not a network one, Rick Berman as producer was the one stating what they could or couldn’t do, justifying based on fear some stations would choose not to carry the show any longer. I think most of the hiccups come from those constraints. I think the treatment should have been shown to be if not ineffective(since the real world parallels are both cruel AND ineffective), then shown to truly damage/hollow out the person after(maybe have her not just be emotionless/robotic, but almost hardly any personality at all with no eye contact while speaking, etc). While the story attempt to elicit sympathy by flipping the circumstances to put the average straight viewer in position to empathize with them. I’ve heard some extremists try to paint it as making the opposite of the intended meaning(trying to paint the planet and its culture as the “Nightmare” world where LGBT took over the culture and oppressed the straights rather than the message that any oppression is wrong). But any critiques are with present day hindsight. For its time over 30 years ago, even with the limitations it was incredibly progressive minded.
Todd “Canuck” Schmuck
2025-02-09 23:13:27 +0000 UTCThat's an outdated "prescriptivist" theory of language. The modern view which has pretty much won the debate is "descriptivism." Language evolves based on what words are understood to mean. The prescriptivist view is incoherent, as one can freeze a language at any historical point and say it is the "correct usage." Prescriptivists held that words that weren't defined by the dictionary weren't proper uses of language untill it became embarrasingly obvious that they were. There is no coherent way to say there is a frozen "proper" language as it is always evolving and changing.
paultardspambot .
2025-02-09 21:30:36 +0000 UTCThis episode has aged extremely well aside from a couple of scenes. Never particularly liked it as a child but it resonates so much more with me now.
Darren Seal
2025-02-09 21:23:52 +0000 UTCTo me it's not just a space show, it's a blueprint to our future. That's what Star Trek means to me.
Christopher Dorn
2025-02-08 23:12:35 +0000 UTCIt seems like every time something like this is asked, about half the people who identify themselves as Republicans/Conservatives say "No that's obviously too far" and half say "Hell yeah it's about time"
Pokeysaurus
2025-02-08 19:54:47 +0000 UTCNo. We wouldn't. That's ridiculous.
Steven Johnson
2025-02-08 17:52:13 +0000 UTCHow is saying “as a gay man” any worse than noting that they are Christian?
AzoriusMage
2025-02-08 14:09:41 +0000 UTCHmmm could the Republicans have gender trials like a new McCarthy era?
AzoriusMage
2025-02-08 14:01:27 +0000 UTCThe whole point of the episode was that she preferred to be a she.
ShazD
2025-02-08 08:24:56 +0000 UTCYou can you "they" for everyone. I do it all of the time naturally now and it happens to really help with my line of work.
Ricky
2025-02-08 05:55:21 +0000 UTCMy dad is VERY conservative, but he loves Star Trek. When I bring up any of the progressive messaging in Star Trek I get from my dad a, "What? No, that's not what it's about!" Basically, there are people out there that apparently see Star Trek as just a space show LMAO!
Ricky
2025-02-08 05:54:20 +0000 UTCThis has long been a fan favorite. I remember in the run-up to the series finale, there was a five episode marathon that was chosen by the network, or someone. But in my area there were also fan selections added, and this was one of them (as well as Darmok). It also won a Hugo Award, one of the most prestigious Sci-Fi awards.
Eric Brinkmann
2025-02-08 05:30:04 +0000 UTCSince we can't talk about stuff they haven't watched yet, we can't get into specifics, but I can't think of a trek character where being gay or nonbinary was their sole defining feature. Yes it sort of was in this episode but they were trying to make a point that really did not have widespread acceptance when it was made.
paultardspambot .
2025-02-08 01:40:20 +0000 UTCIt's not really used consistently even by people who make that distinction. The idea is that sex refers to the biology one has and gender refers to the culturally relative expectations that come with sex, like "dresses are for women." But under that definition, "gender dysphoria" should be "sex dysphoria." I think the idea was for people who were transgender but who didn't want to physically transition, to clarify what it meant that they were "changing genders". Like they were going to use the pronoun of the gender they now identified as and the style of dress and people should think of them as that gender. But people who say that also tend to say that gendering things like clothing is bad. There is a bit of confusion with the linguistic stuff there, as I think these definitions came from serving specific arguments as opposed to evolving organically. I think this can really confuse people. Like when people say people should be able to "choos their gender", they mean it in the sense i referred to above, but it leads to people thinking they mean they choose their sex, which isn't accurate, because if one has gender dysphoria, its not something someone is choosing, but something that is is a biological sense they have (it has been shown that there are parts of the brain that have different average sizes for men and woman and this is reversed in transgender people). But I see many cases where people use the term "gender" when by the definitions they are using they should be using "sex."
paultardspambot .
2025-02-08 01:35:51 +0000 UTCYou can judge a movie by the cast photos?
paultardspambot .
2025-02-08 01:24:50 +0000 UTCYes exactly 😂
ShazD
2025-02-08 01:22:43 +0000 UTCWouldn't it actually be "her" in this particular case?
paultardspambot .
2025-02-08 01:22:16 +0000 UTCYeah, I think that especially with stuff in the past, what holding them to today's standards is missing is that those shows were themselves incrementally pushing forward that acceptance. Doing so in ways where people who might not be accepting would potentially influenced can be more effective in progressing society's attitudes then I think people realize. I also think that there's things that are seen as normative now that history may look back and say "how could you have not realized that was wrong?" and for a lot of people, it's not so much that they have this strong opinion on it, they just sort of go with the general overton window of where society is at. Like, there may be a point in the future where people look back and say "how could people have not realized killing animals and eating them was wrong?" And a lot of people DO think, ok, yeah, thats not great, but continue to do it or not make a huge effort to stop it.
paultardspambot .
2025-02-08 01:17:54 +0000 UTCThat distinction wasn't really around back then, outside of maybe specific fields of academia. It's still not used consistently, or "gender dysphoria" would be called "sex dysphoria"
paultardspambot .
2025-02-08 01:08:13 +0000 UTC"Gender" has supplanted "personality" as a description of the multitude of various kinds of people in the world.
Michael Metrick
2025-02-07 21:15:51 +0000 UTCThe definition of gender has been forcibly changed to what personality used to mean.
Michael Metrick
2025-02-07 21:11:37 +0000 UTCThe episode is very dated now especially re: women wear their hair long and wear makeup and men don't. Oh and the complete absence of even mentioning that humans have homosexuals yikes. But you can kinda appreciate it as a product of its time.
ShazD
2025-02-07 21:08:50 +0000 UTCJosh using "they/them" pronouns for Soran was a choice lol. Did he do it intentionally??
ShazD
2025-02-07 21:05:48 +0000 UTCI saw the start of this episode when it aired, but my conservative Christian parents saw the message the show was trying to portray and turned it off.
Sherpa Jones
2025-02-07 19:47:09 +0000 UTC??
Derek Orr
2025-02-07 19:44:32 +0000 UTCI've heard some of the cast dislikes this episode, particularly Frakes, who wanted Soren to be played by a man. But as a kid growing up in the 80's and 90's I thought t was amazing. I read it as being about homosexuality at the time, and now it reads as being about transgender issues. In either reading, I say it's a banger.
Steve Boshear
2025-02-07 19:31:50 +0000 UTCWe are spoiled by Michael Dorn. Michael's work built maybe 80 or 90% of the Klingon world we know today. Leonard Nimoy built the Vulcan world. Armin Shimerman built the Ferengi world. Brent Spiner built his family as a world of their own. The way he says "they bother me". As much as you don't want to mess with Worf, I have more respect for anyone who can take him on either physically, mentally or strategically. I notice that Diana did not continue to push the question. They all know how to get along with Worf.
James Baloun
2025-02-07 18:07:43 +0000 UTCGenerally, one is a biological category and another is a social category.
Tony B
2025-02-07 17:42:49 +0000 UTCColumn Meanie, good take, although I disagree with the premise. There are plenty of females that Riker wouldn't have a boner for. He's a horn dog for sure, but for hotties. Sticking Riker into this scenario is like trying to fit into a size three shoe with a size 11 foot. If it don't fit, you can't commit!
Michael Metrick
2025-02-07 17:18:30 +0000 UTCJovet, that's exactly my point.
Michael Metrick
2025-02-07 17:13:33 +0000 UTCRemember folks, curing delusion is bad, actually.
Jeff Cornell
2025-02-07 16:31:57 +0000 UTCI didn't think these guys would be homophobic or anything, just going by what we've seen of their personalities. But I, too was wondering what their take would be. You never know.
Joe Concepts
2025-02-07 15:58:36 +0000 UTCYes, no one really made a distinction between the two before very recently. I'm definitely of the "live and let live" attitude, but I must admit I'm not clear on "gender" vs. "sex. "
Joe Concepts
2025-02-07 15:52:10 +0000 UTCThere used to be the idea in grammar, "masculine preferred", meaning when the gender of the subject is unknown, you default to male pronouns. But they don't teach that, anymore.
Joe Concepts
2025-02-07 15:49:35 +0000 UTCYeah it’s really annoying they have to flaunt their woke credentials with an Asian and a Black person and two Jews and oh wait that’s TOS. (Also they cast two Canadians! The U.S.’s greatest enemy!)
John M.
2025-02-07 15:35:27 +0000 UTCThe whole point of the episode is that she ISN’T gender neutral, but rather female and that is what attracted Riker to her.
Column Meanie
2025-02-07 15:19:33 +0000 UTC"I don't wanna go full bore here..." [hard cut] Release the Josh cut, you cowards.
tkitez (take it easy)
2025-02-07 14:43:21 +0000 UTCI’m a big believer that “words have meaning” and if you deviate from conventional meaning then it’s your fault if you’re misunderstood. That being said, language evolves. The dictionary isn’t a rule book, it’s a record book.
Pokeysaurus
2025-02-07 13:20:41 +0000 UTCRefusing to let anyone leave is the hallmark of an insecure leadership that doesn’t believe in its people or its own ideals.
Pokeysaurus
2025-02-07 13:18:29 +0000 UTCSorry Jovet but by how the scoreboard counts there is NO WAY we do not give Riker a score. They passionately kiss then commercial break, then time jump and Riker is talking to Troi about love. That is some of the highest evidence we ever have. So YES they did according to the scoreboard.
Prof Moff
2025-02-07 11:45:10 +0000 UTCI think Wilson Cruz did a fine job of portraying a well-rounded individual. It would have been nice to have more of him. Shame Anthony Rapp's character spent so much time in the "self-absorbed a'hole" camp, but he had some good stretches, too. And John Cho was fine, even if it was blink and you'll miss it and George Takai wasn't on board. It's perhaps not what it could or should be, but it's better than it has been, and time will hopefully continue to sand away the rough patches until it does get there.
Avaria
2025-02-07 07:41:53 +0000 UTCOh really? There were a lot more homophobic people in 1992 than there are today, including political leaders which legalized same sex marriage. Does “fuck them” apply to them as well? Or do we allow them to be educated and evolve their thinking, and maybe offer them the same compassion we would ask for ourselves?
Column Meanie
2025-02-07 07:05:23 +0000 UTCThe idea of having Picard or Riker ask a male crew member how their boyfriend was doing was thought up by David Gerrold. He had written an episode called Blood And Fire for TNG's first season which had the moment. It was an episode about a ship that encountered the Regulan Blood Worms that he mentioned in Trouble With Tribbles.
Mike Rogers
2025-02-07 06:48:26 +0000 UTCThe people who scream "Tolerance!" the loudest are the quickest to forget about it when it becomes inconvenient to them.
Jovet
2025-02-07 06:07:19 +0000 UTC@Column Meanie It's perfectly relevant, whether you like it or not.
Jovet
2025-02-07 06:05:15 +0000 UTCYou can wish "literally" to mean something that it doesn't, but that does not make it so.
Jovet
2025-02-07 06:03:17 +0000 UTCYou're not supposed to notice that. (Though, the power source isn't immune, it just lasts longer. What really bakes the noodle is how they would even know any of that from outside the null space.)
Jovet
2025-02-07 06:00:38 +0000 UTCYou just know Riker is sampling all sorts of jamaharon when on leave.
Alan Thompson
2025-02-07 05:45:50 +0000 UTCThere are so many answers to that question. https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/102364/default-gender-for-pronouns/102602#102602
Michael Nemo
2025-02-07 05:44:03 +0000 UTCI must say though, Worf at the poker game always cracks me up WORF: The J'naii. They bother me. TROI: Why, Worf? WORF: Well, they just do. They're all alike. Just politically incorrect to the point of being a caricature😆
Timothy Nikiforovs
2025-02-07 05:32:47 +0000 UTCYeah, that's why I cited the anecdote of the cast asking for the smallest possible concession to give a nod to the mere existence of same sex couples in starfleet, at the level of blink-and-youll-miss-it. I think it was his own homophobia, and regardless of decade - fuck him.
Chris
2025-02-07 04:58:39 +0000 UTCNot at all. It’s just that your point is a bit irrelevant to what I was saying. I was staying on topic.
Column Meanie
2025-02-07 04:48:37 +0000 UTCI had forgotten about the giant plot hole in this episode. They talk about a power source that the J'Nai have that is immune to the void (it's what's powering the life support on the trapped shuttle) but then don't bother to just fill up a shuttle with those power packs to fly in and rescue their people.
Nerd's Gold
2025-02-07 04:39:15 +0000 UTCOh damn, hit send just before you all read my patron take. Thanks, I appreciate it! Josh's rant cracked me up and he's 100% right. 🖖🏻
Wrestling With Gaming
2025-02-07 04:35:57 +0000 UTCYou guys also deserve credit for the mature way you approached the post episode conversation. Star Trek's ability to inspire these kind of conversations is what it's all about. GEORDIE BEARD
Wrestling With Gaming
2025-02-07 04:28:21 +0000 UTCRiker's only before gone for hot chicks. This episode is so out of his character it's embarrassing.
Jovet
2025-02-07 04:01:50 +0000 UTC@Column Meanie I think you missed my point.
Jovet
2025-02-07 03:59:08 +0000 UTCI don't believe the "cure" was ever purported to be 100% effective. It was called a "very high success rate."
Jovet
2025-02-07 03:58:05 +0000 UTCThe struggle is between what each individual feels is best for himself versus what is best for society as a whole.
Jovet
2025-02-07 03:55:19 +0000 UTCYour fourth paragraph is the point of the episode. (e.g. Soren's speech)
Jovet
2025-02-07 03:53:19 +0000 UTCHow is it outdated? It's been applicable for a long time, and still is today.
Jovet
2025-02-07 03:51:21 +0000 UTCSoren's speech is written really well.
Jovet
2025-02-07 03:42:30 +0000 UTCTrans activists like to point to this episode but it's actually about homosexuality. Yes, Trek has always been a liberal show, but they did it the right way. Telling a good story and not beating you over the head with propaganda like we have now. Like the new Section 31 movie. Just look at the cast photos and that tells you all you need to know about it.
Clyde Frog
2025-02-07 03:37:29 +0000 UTCIt gives me authority to criticize how Trek has handled LGBT issues. Only for you does it single me out.
Column Meanie
2025-02-07 03:37:15 +0000 UTCThe most stupid annoying thing about this episode? Beaming out from within the null space. With only 9% reserves.
Jovet
2025-02-07 03:32:56 +0000 UTC😄😄😄😄🖖
A G
2025-02-07 03:31:31 +0000 UTCRight after the monologue by Soren it goes to commercial and Paramount+ showed me an ad for a Christian dating app. No lie.
Michael Nemo
2025-02-07 03:28:15 +0000 UTCGender ≠ Sex
Jovet
2025-02-07 03:27:49 +0000 UTCOutdatedly correct.
Michael Nemo
2025-02-07 03:26:07 +0000 UTCSoren and Riker never porked. Or, err, seeded.
Jovet
2025-02-07 03:23:27 +0000 UTCAs a straight, moderately conservative guy, I don't particularly connect with the gender identity aspects of the episode, but much like The Host and Half a Life, this episode does touch pretty heavily on the subject of personal freedom/bodily autonomy, which are pretty important subjects for me. Hell, I don't even think infant circumcision should be legal. If it's not strictly medically necessary it should wait till that person is an adult and can decide for themselves. I do find it rather hypocritical that the J'naii claim any species that still has separate genders to be backward(pretty much all of them), yet they essentially employ thought police. I can understand a society that has certain rules and expectations of it's citizens, certain principles that aren't up for debate. I don't really see that sexual identity or relationships are the government's business beyond it being 2 consenting adults though. In either case though, and much like Timicin's case(and as Riker brought up here), a space faring race should at the most be saying "if you don't like how we do things you're free to leave". Forcing compliance from a population is a great way to wind up with a revolution. It's the reason freedom of speech is so important, especially when people are saying horrible things. It's why so called "hate speech" laws are such a horrible idea. You don't get rid of the people who feel that way, you just push them underground. They don't want to be arrested so they won't say those things in public, but they'll say them in basements to anyone they suss out as sharing those views. It's like sweeping spilled food under a rug and leaving it for 3 months till it's a huge patch of mold. It just doesn't work. The J'naii shouldn't care whether someone feels more like a man or a woman, but if they insist they don't want "regressive" people in their society, offering them a free ride to any planet of their choosing is the best way to accomplish that. When the consequence of discovery is brainwashing, anyone like Soren is just going to get that much better at hiding. Long story short, as androgynous as they are, the J'naii are a real bag of dicks.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2025-02-07 03:21:50 +0000 UTCBerman gets a lot of flack for those decisions, but it was 1992 and he was responsible for keeping the Star Trek franchise on television through 2005. That’s a lot to put on one person’s shoulders. TNG was a family show, and in 1992 there was no such thing as “LGBT”. People were normal, and if you weren’t you were gay, lesbian, a f*g, a d*ke, or a transvestite. Remember: that was the world this episode was written in and aired in. This was pre-Ellen. Pre-Matthew Shepard. Pre-gay marriage. As a gay man living through those times as a teen and having been called many of those names, I have seen us progress to the point where same-sex couples and transgendered persons can come out of the shadows, to where we are now referred to with respectful language and where now it is not the norm to be talked down to or insulted with those words but rather the exception. So it is unfair of us in 2025 to hold the makers of TNG in 1992 for “not going far enough”. The actors certainly may have had their desires to take it further, and Roddenberry may have wanted to see men holding hands, but at the end of the day none of them were responsible for a family show, nor had to consider that TNG was made for Alabama as much as it was made for Hollywood.
Column Meanie
2025-02-07 03:20:23 +0000 UTC@Column Meanie Perhaps we need to focus on our commonalities, instead of our petty differences. Starting a conversation with "As a gay man..." already singles you out as different than everyone else.
Jovet
2025-02-07 03:17:07 +0000 UTC7:10 HE is the correct pronoun in the English language.
Jovet
2025-02-07 03:11:21 +0000 UTCA good episode ahead of its time. Something to consider though is that with our outlook/cultural bias this society was wrong for their beliefs, but if Soren had been schizophrenic and was arguing that she liked the voices in her head, would we think that she would be better off without treatment? As for the "woke" debate, the biggest issue is that audiences (conservative or otherwise) want media that entertains and challenges them, not propagandizes them. Star Trek was a great example of a show that could take important topics and reframe them in an interesting light, leading to reflection and discussion. A lot of modern media is so hamfisted that you aren't being entertained and challenged, but rather patronized.
DustmanNorochj
2025-02-07 02:59:41 +0000 UTCMedia if defined by TV and Movies my be progrssive, if you talking News wether its by radio or television it absolutely isnt
Scarpad’s Domain
2025-02-07 02:57:16 +0000 UTCOn the one hand I do think that societies need to have certain principles they adhere to and don't compromise on, I don't think first off that sexuality/gender identity is any business of the govt, and second not even giving Soren the option to leave bothered me a lot. People need to be free to choose how to live. If for whatever reason that's incompatible with where they live, they should freely be allowed to find somewhere that's a better fit. Apart from infringing on personal freedoms, the kind of forced conformity the J'naii employ is a good way to wind up with a revolution at some point.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2025-02-07 02:52:39 +0000 UTCDS9 will Extend this idea in a few years
Scarpad’s Domain
2025-02-07 02:48:38 +0000 UTCGood Storytelling is usually as relevant today as it was 30 years ago, and sadly it is
Scarpad’s Domain
2025-02-07 02:24:37 +0000 UTCThe Expanse handled this way better than Trek.
Aaron Wells
2025-02-07 01:54:26 +0000 UTCThey aren't villains. It's relative. Applying good or bad to that society only works in the context of that society. It's basic cultural relativism. Applying a hero or villain status to someone else's culture from our own perspective simply doesn't work.
Aaron Wells
2025-02-07 01:52:45 +0000 UTCAnd to Alex and Josh's curiousity from the video... the Troi / Riker scene was meant to reflect Riker "coming out" to Troi. Again, a B. Solid B. For 1992. For today... it's a solid, "Huh? What? Did Troi's mom send her faceless Dorf dolls???" -an "open-minded" Vulcan... PON... a little FURTHER... 🖖
A G
2025-02-07 01:39:38 +0000 UTCOne thing that can be missed is how they speak about gender and sex in this episode. They do not make any distinction between the two. Riker spoke about sex differences and used the words gender and sex interchangeably. That was very common and almost exclusively how gender and sex were viewed. It is a much newer understanding to split gender from sex. For most of my life gender was another word for sex in this aspect.
Carl Peterson
2025-02-07 01:31:05 +0000 UTCEven more typical Paramount L
Josh (Target Audience)
2025-02-07 01:22:23 +0000 UTCI'll chime in with my own, "As a Cardassian...", so, as a gay Cardassian I watched TNG in middle school and early high school, and have a pretty complicated relationship with it emotionally. In my fantasy, if Roddenberry had lived longer, it'd be a lot gayer, and we'd definitely have gotten two dudes kissing on tv far sooner than many would have been comfortable with. Instead, Rick Berman killed any mention of anything gay in the trek universe. One anecdote that stood out in my head was Patrick Stewart or Frakes wanting to have a line asking a male officer about how their husband was off handedly in a scene transition. Vetoed. And of course, Jonathan Frakes advocating for Soren to be played by a man in this episode, and Berman vetoing that because he couldn't imagine people would be comfortable with it. Pretty cool of Frakes to be up for making out with a dude on air.
Chris
2025-02-07 01:22:02 +0000 UTCThank you for watching the whole video
Josh (Target Audience)
2025-02-07 01:20:10 +0000 UTCThank you for watching the video to the end
Josh (Target Audience)
2025-02-07 01:19:20 +0000 UTCI bet Berman shut that down real quick
Mister Hope
2025-02-07 01:14:13 +0000 UTCThis episode has aged extremely well. It was originally an allegorical look at society's attitudes towards homosexuality, made when the show wasn't allowed to address it directly. But thirty years later it has evolved into a brilliant take on the issue of transgenderism.
Regan
2025-02-07 01:13:00 +0000 UTCHaha, I noticed that too for the very first time! In an episode about gender, those ear piercing marks really pop out. :)
ScotchBeard78
2025-02-07 01:09:01 +0000 UTCSo, Josh. Regarding your comment @48:12., Interestingly enough, the writers wanted to cast a male in the role. And Jonathan Frakes was all for it as well. Paramount said "NO!!! Nonononono!" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
StealthMomo
2025-02-07 01:00:07 +0000 UTCTo be fair, Kirk got 12 in three seasons. Riker has had 5 and is only 2 a head.
Nolan
2025-02-07 00:37:49 +0000 UTCAs a gay man who leans to the left, I can agree with much of what you say here. I yearn for the day where a gay character on Trek is treated like everyone else: they don’t have silly issues, don’t come across as self-absorbed a-holes, and their sexuality is just a part of who they are, but not ALL of who they are. One day.
Column Meanie
2025-02-07 00:19:30 +0000 UTCWe can wish all we want but the expectations for a syndicated family sci fi show made in 1992 to tackle a queer issue based on 2025 standards is very unrealistic.
Column Meanie
2025-02-07 00:14:27 +0000 UTCHighly unlikely but who knows. Also in case you haven't seen the TOS board you can see Riker is the biggest slut in Star Trek AS OF NOW. We will see if anyone can catch walking boner TOS Sex Scoreboard Kirk 12 Chekov 4 Spock 5 Bones 4 Scottie 2 Uhura 1
Prof Moff
2025-02-06 23:34:20 +0000 UTCYeah the poll on that one is ridiculous, I’ve never seen so many S votes
Worf and Riker Ride Again
2025-02-06 23:30:50 +0000 UTCAt this point, Riker is so far ahead can anyone catch up?
Worf and Riker Ride Again
2025-02-06 23:18:43 +0000 UTCWith all due respect, not everyone is a political progressive, liberal, or leftist — including those who enjoy Alex's and Josh's reactions. I'm right of center, and I find it amusing how often the Left paints people like me as a caricature. And no, I'm not hateful, bigoted, or anything of the sort. I wasn’t going to say anything... but nah. I’ve spent my entire career staying silent while colleagues casually throw around those caricatures and ad hominem attacks, assuming everyone in the room thinks just like them. Sorry. I exist too.
Tom Occhipinti
2025-02-06 23:02:45 +0000 UTCI appreciate your discussion on the whole progressive issue at the end. Totally agree, 100%. Progressive is just an adjective, like conservative or liberal. Something that is progressive doesn't make it good or bad, it's just 1 descriptor.
Collin Freeman
2025-02-06 22:33:06 +0000 UTCYou guys are going into deep conversation about some stuff a lot of us have dealt with. This definitely shows that the episode did it’s job. It’s not the best episode in the world, but I’ll give it props for being a good after school special.
Christopher Boutwell
2025-02-06 22:28:25 +0000 UTCRiver, I couldn't disagree.
Michael Metrick
2025-02-06 22:21:32 +0000 UTCThose right wing propaganda channels feed into this a lot nowadays. People like this are the type who watch youtubers like The Critical Drinker, Asmongold, etc and get balls deep in the brainwashing that comes with it.
Spencer Loften
2025-02-06 22:20:35 +0000 UTCKristina, love your perspective.
Michael Metrick
2025-02-06 22:19:45 +0000 UTCThe main message of the episode aside, I have a few observations to make about this alien race, speaking strictly about them as a fictional alien race. Mainly, their 100% cure is kind of frightening. Two ideas immediately spring to mind. 1) This species natural state really is non-binary and people like Soren actually are "sick." The cure actually cures them as the society believes. 2) The "cure" was actually how this species "evolved". What if at some point, this race developed a way to eliminate gender in the form of this "cure" and eventually everyone was forced to take it? I'm reminded of The Giver here. What if at some point the ruling body decided that this was what was best for everyone? Maybe things started voluntarily, but then was eventually forced onto the whole populace? The Borg could have started out this way too until eventually their entire population was forced to accept cybernetic implants because they were superior. People like Soren would then be people who actually remembered who they really are. The later scenario, both with the Genai and the Borg, serve as warnings for our own culture. This is what happens when the majority decides what is "best for everyone" and then forces it on everyone. Is it really best for everyone then? This is why we have variation everywhere and differing ideas.
BN13
2025-02-06 22:17:06 +0000 UTCWhat Trek does best. Just starts a conversation. Makes you think. BUT, Berman era TNG approached these topics gently, and with a lot of class. I am a Christian conservative. I’m proud to admit that. But I also respect how this show went about it carefully, without really taking too much of a side. EVERYONE can talk about it. Nowadays…lets just say that TV shoves the ultra leftist liberal side down your throat, and you are a bad person if you disagree. That is not Star Trek, and I find modern TV and cinema demeaning and offensive because of this. This is surprisingly a better episode than remember, and I’d love a modern show that tackles all kinds of topics in a classy, fair, and level-headed way.
Chris S.
2025-02-06 22:14:42 +0000 UTCI felt pretty sure our guys wouldn't let us down here.
David Wayne Fox
2025-02-06 22:06:44 +0000 UTCImagine trying to push that story back then that is so dependent on whatever guest star they choose. So dialog heavy on 2 characters about that subject, Riker's is from ALASKA, Riker's choice in women, and Riker's favorite position (insert rusty trombone joke).. A little more on the writer Jeri Taylor 06/30/38-10/24/24 Taylor was contracted by the executive producers of Star Trek: The Next Generation (1987). After completing her first assignment she became a permanent fixture on the show, first as staff writer and later as co-executive producer alongside Rick Berman and Michael Piller. Taylor also became involved in other aspects of production, including casting, editing and post-production. During her tenure on TNG, Taylor attempted to put a stronger focus on the two main female characters (Troi and Crusher), elevating them from what she described as 'caretaker roles'. While many of Taylor's scripts were concerned with family issues and relationships, she also worked on notably edgy episodes, like 'Night Terrors', 'Silicon Avatar' and part one of 'Unification Her episode 'The Wounded' introduced the Cardassians (make-up artist Michael Westmore had tasked her with finding a name for this race and Taylor initially came up with 'Carvillians' and 'Circassians', before tweaking the name).
Badger
2025-02-06 21:43:52 +0000 UTCI'm not sure what to make of this cognitive dissonance. Do you hate progressivism and you're trying to cleanse Trek of it?
Aaron Wells
2025-02-06 21:43:34 +0000 UTCIf I remember correctly Josh and Alex are pretty much correct, Lavar wanted to grow a beard, the production staff wasn't happy, but he did it any ways.
D Jammers
2025-02-06 21:43:26 +0000 UTCI'm not talking about this episode. I'm talking about Trek. That thing from the middle 1960s.
Aaron Wells
2025-02-06 21:42:37 +0000 UTCYes! I was thinking something similar. They were both on the A-Team, and I liked her on that show. Too bad George Peppard did not.
Collin Freeman
2025-02-06 21:42:02 +0000 UTCThere was no network. TNG was a syndicated show, so it was not owned or beholden to any particular network. Paramount might have issues.
Collin Freeman
2025-02-06 21:40:44 +0000 UTCAs a 14 year old closeted “G” in “LGBTQIA+”when this episode originally aired, I appreciate this for even existing. I consider this episode as a “first draft” at tackling topics involving sexual and gender minorities in mainstream media. America had to start somewhere, right? I have to admit, I was holding my breath a little to see how Alex and Josh reacted to this episode. I’m glad I don’t have to regret making my TA Patreon membership as a line item in my budget. Now, let’s move on, shall we? The best is yet to come…
Danula2
2025-02-06 21:39:01 +0000 UTCI somehow never noticed Geordie's beard before! Maybe it was the low quality of my copy of the episode, combined with the dark lighting of the scene.
GreenCauldron08
2025-02-06 21:29:23 +0000 UTCFirst interracial kiss on TV.
Eric Wilson
2025-02-06 21:28:03 +0000 UTCStar Trek was not ahead of its time, many other shows had actual LGBTQ characters years before this episode aired. In fact Star Trek's progressiveness is vastly overstated in general, it wasn't particularly progressive by 60s standards. It wasn't the worst but other shows did more than Star Trek when it came to POC representation. It didn't even have the first interracial kiss, that's a myth. Sea Hunt did it in 1959, Adventures in Paradise in 1960 and I Spy in 1966. Even Shatner himself had kissed an asian woman on tv in 1958. Of course TOS still faced some resistance and not everyone was happy with the kiss but it was not the first. So let's bury the myth of Star Trek boldly breaking down barriers, it never did that.
Phillip Grischa
2025-02-06 21:24:26 +0000 UTCOh yeah. For sure. It's definitely a "walk a mile in (their) shoes" sort of a thing. In hindsight, I feel that lots of media that attempted to do this same thing over the years *overplayed* a tragic angle. And I used to wonder if it was meant as a consolation so as not to anger heteronormalized audiences... or something. Meh. That's probably a stretch. I think something can be said about messages that aim for greater affirmative attitudes rather than acknowledging that "yeah, everything sucks." But, again, this episode is a product of its time, and it's a magnificent accomplishment in terms of commentary and progressiveness. I appreciate it for those aspects. But I also think it can be a benchmark for how writers can attempt to improve upon prior narratives. It's just like the fellows said: This episode is a "moral episode" but it lacks the neat bow tied at the end like we get in the Drumhead.
Shortskirtsandexplosions
2025-02-06 21:24:23 +0000 UTCAgain, believe that this episode accidentally and retroactively fits more as a metaphor for trans people than it does for homosexuality.
Joe Concepts
2025-02-06 21:20:50 +0000 UTCThe episode would've really stood out if Riker said, "Even in our society there are people that prefer the same gender." I think that would've have been mild enough, but it could be the producers were afraid of even that.
Joe Concepts
2025-02-06 21:18:33 +0000 UTCI think that kind of downer story back then was supposed to make people rethink their own beliefs, etc. It's a "Look what they did to her, you shouldn't think the way they do." I could also see someone in that community thinking it's a "hopeless" kind of ending for them.
Joe Concepts
2025-02-06 21:16:55 +0000 UTCLook, they were very limited by the network on how they could handle LGBTQ subject matters. As a gay guy, it doesn't offend me, because I see it as they did the best they could, given how horrifically homophobic studios were in the 1980's and 90's. It's by no means perfect and it doesn't age as well given how (comparatively!) accepting the country is compared to then. I would def rate this episode a sold B. It's not one I go back to unless I'm showing it to someone, but it's not awful either.
River Acheron
2025-02-06 21:01:24 +0000 UTCYeah, Trek has always been highly topical, and ahead of its time. I think the actors did a worthy job of it, but the sense of the level of chemistry between them that would elevate it to an "I love you!" in 42 minutes just wasn't there. Yeah, Trek has always been "woke", much as it pains me to use the term. It was an interesting juxtaposition of themes...but the execution just wasn't there IMO. The dialogue with Riker describing the concepts of gender was well put together, but also shied away from a direct, earnest declarative statement. If they want to go there...I think they should GO THERE. And boldly. But...this was also over 30 years ago...
Aaron Wells
2025-02-06 20:58:53 +0000 UTCI could give you my trans take, but as someone who writes and podcasts online what I really want to say is that "Who am I grifting from" is the realest shit you've ever said. Man, do I hate how transparent people are trying to say things online just to get clicks or patreon bucks or whatever. Be bold and say what you actually mean with your chest regardless of whether or not it gets you attention. God damn, no wonder media literacy is at an all time low. And that's *my* little soapbox rant.
Ally Roth
2025-02-06 20:57:40 +0000 UTCAlso, if y'all like "downer endings," it renews my hope for your reaction to DS9 episodes~
Shortskirtsandexplosions
2025-02-06 20:54:56 +0000 UTCWell. Here that is.
Aaron Wells
2025-02-06 20:53:54 +0000 UTCThey tried. And it's par for the course for Star Trek. It's unfortunate, for this "analogy" to play out, they have to cast non-binary individuals as villains. Also, I think LGBT commentary in media from the 90s (and beyond) stereotypically have "downer endings" to get the message of... sadness? Tragedy across? There is no triumph, and as such there is no confidence. I suppose that there is the tragedy. I mostly like this episode for what it wants to be, but it is far from perfect.
Shortskirtsandexplosions
2025-02-06 20:53:10 +0000 UTCTNG The sex scoreboard Riker is on a Bangin the bobs kick. That is bobbed hair (short hair) Riker 14 new +1 Troi 4 Dr. Bev 3 Data 2 Ro 1 Picard 1 Worf 1 Geordi 1 Broccoli 2 i Chief/Keiko 1 Extra: Chalk another score for Riker on the board. He is clearly on a bit of a short hair tear. I’ll point out the dumbest question ever asked on TNG. Soren asks Riker what kind of woman he is attracted to. The answer is of course: breathing, unless of course the species does not breath in which case non-breather works too.
Prof Moff
2025-02-06 20:26:38 +0000 UTCJonathan Frakes wanted a male actor to play Soran...
Joshua Langweil
2025-02-06 20:26:19 +0000 UTCI liked another reviewer's idea that it should have been Geordi as the love interest. Would have felt more in-character. Maybe Frakes wanted to show support for the queer community? Or they thought it was easier to swallow from the show's lothario? I dunno, man, Riker doesn't seem well-matched with this alien's energy. As a queer lady, I wish the writers had written a braver story regarding gender/sexuality.
Kristina Weber
2025-02-06 20:25:53 +0000 UTCThanks for reading my take It is fascinating when people try to make the case that a diverse group of space communists being accepting of other cultures hasn't always been progressive. You might even think that it's weird that a conservative would get anything out of the show. But I have heard from conservative folks that one of the bigger draws for them is "competence porn" and an emphasis on the value on merit. I can get that. But what bewilders me is that one of them could watch an episode like this, empathize with it, and then go into the real world and be a huge POS to the people who this is based on. Just saying.
THE LORE!!!
2025-02-06 20:16:03 +0000 UTCwell that's one way to look at it....as in the most cynical and negative
penoyer79
2025-02-06 20:15:54 +0000 UTCTypical network L
Josh (Target Audience)
2025-02-06 20:11:02 +0000 UTCWe’ve seen through ep21 and are watching through ep24 tonight. You can tell based on the dates of the Patron Takes posts
Josh (Target Audience)
2025-02-06 20:10:40 +0000 UTCI got to the patron takes too late on this... when this first came out in the 90s I was still struggling with my sexuality and I remember there were gay Star Trek fans like me that were looking for representation in this show. Up until this point, this is all we got... basically, although the heart of the producers were in the right place, there was just no representation in the show. That made this episode a disappointment and perhaps a bit of a cop-out, despite its good intentions and decent performances. Looking back on it now seems a little different, and I actually like it better for what it does present, especially in our current climate. Oh, and for the record I thought your analysis of the episode was fantastic.
David Wayne Fox
2025-02-06 20:03:18 +0000 UTCThough I guess... have they already seen the next episode? Do they watch them in groups?
Ian Westcott
2025-02-06 20:03:04 +0000 UTCWhat a ham handed way of tackling the subject. To have a clearly straight character, arguably the straightest character of the show, attracted to an androgynous creature... stretches credibility beyond reason. It's the old "oh I could turn him... " bullshit from the 70s and 80s. Complete nonsense. This has always been a D, for delusion. .
Michael Metrick
2025-02-06 19:54:28 +0000 UTCWhat's the spoiler?? Giving my opinion that's it's gonna be an "S" episode??
The_Truth
2025-02-06 19:51:49 +0000 UTCThis is one of those episodes where you think its heart is in the right place, but the execution is lacking. Also, unfortunately the plot requires Riker to fall in love in the span of an episode, and in episodic TV, that very, very rarely works. He's required to fall for Soren, but never know WHY he would. That just doesn't make sense.
Ian Westcott
2025-02-06 19:50:15 +0000 UTCTisk tisk, you should know the dangers by this point of setting their expectations. And posting spoilers.
Ian Westcott
2025-02-06 19:48:32 +0000 UTCLove this episode but I'm gonna call it now, next episode is gonna be SSS
The_Truth
2025-02-06 19:39:11 +0000 UTCThe writers actually wanted to make the androgynous society an all "male looking" society and have the "outcast" be a character with male feelings be attracted to Riker but the network refused to allow that picture so it was changed to all female looking society
The_Truth
2025-02-06 19:31:46 +0000 UTCI love it when Star Trek integrates social issues in society into episodes, and how they show both sides of the issue.
The_Truth
2025-02-06 19:27:52 +0000 UTCI always forgive this episode because for an LGBT story it was as far as they could push it in 1992. We need to remember there were 5 channels to watch back then since most didn’t have cable or satellite. Stakes were much higher and taking risks had stronger potential consequences.
Column Meanie
2025-02-06 19:23:20 +0000 UTCLooking forward to watching after work. I'm a straight guy, so this episode always seemed well-intended but never came together in a way to make it a classic. It's like if you did the Drumhead but never got the Picard interogation/speech scene to really put a button on it.
EnigmaticPenguin
2025-02-06 19:18:56 +0000 UTCI’m so glad you had that!
PIG
2025-02-06 19:16:58 +0000 UTCAs a Gay... yeah. Not perfect. As a 8 year old gay with no internet and no words or vocabulary to explain my feelings... "I am tired of lies..." 🙁🤔😳🥺😥...😐... Older me to my younger self: 🫂... 🖖.
A G
2025-02-06 19:02:01 +0000 UTCBefore I watch this I make a call that you two will not be fond of this one. Let's see if I am surprised.
Mike Rogers
2025-02-06 18:51:12 +0000 UTCSuch a missed opportunity to have Sorin pass Lt. Barcaly in the hallway with a puzzled look.
Alan Thompson
2025-02-06 18:50:49 +0000 UTCAs a transwoman, my feelings on this episode are complicated. But rather than thinking about that at the moment, I chose to focus on how amused I am that Soren has pierced ears.
Julie Carter
2025-02-06 18:45:12 +0000 UTC
