DISCUSSION - Devil's Due (TNG S4E13) | Star Trek Journey 194
Added 2024-10-06 02:41:26 +0000 UTC
Comments
what I would say is I am very invested in the narrative cohesion of the trek universe as a whole because it's lore has grown by leaps and bounds from even the TNG days and I like to be able to see every episode as an event in that universe. If you are considering just an episodic show I see your viewpoint. But I think these types of "plotholes" are much more apparent after you have developed a broad picture of the universe from seeing the whole franchise and thus what you can suspend disbelief in changes.
paultardspambot .
2024-10-12 09:48:09 +0000 UTCProbably shouldn't say this, but in the interests of protecting TA, she ends up marrying Dr. Stubbs in episode 22!
tyranusfan
2024-10-07 21:09:13 +0000 UTCthere are plenty of security risks to the Federation, this is just a minor con game thing
Derek Orr
2024-10-07 21:07:04 +0000 UTCFor an interesting real-world comparison to this episode, read up on Haiti's 200 year "deal with the devil" for independence.
Who North America
2024-10-07 13:10:52 +0000 UTCIt has to land right for the viewer, which is different for everyone. I like Captians Holiday, they did not, because I see the whole episode as a comedy and I’m willing to ignore certain plot points as a result. Just hits me different, maybe because I watched it with my wife the first time I saw it and we had a blast watching it together.
marty63026
2024-10-07 11:35:47 +0000 UTCYep
marty63026
2024-10-07 11:31:05 +0000 UTCThe sexual stuff is there to show Picard’s integrity, that’s all.
marty63026
2024-10-07 11:30:37 +0000 UTCI AGREE!! Don't pick the film apart while watching. I have seen so many films and read over a thousand books that I can quickly solve the plot of books or film. HOWEVER, I learned not to solve/debunk them now because it robs me of my enjoyment! I wait until after to rip it apart, LoL!
TeenyStudio Flicks
2024-10-07 03:02:17 +0000 UTCI'm in the minority and always liked this ep but c'mon this is an S i mean i don't get it but ok
Scarpad’s Domain
2024-10-07 00:11:54 +0000 UTCIn general I really enjoyed this episode if for no other reason than it felt sort of comedic. I didn't really take it that seriously. I just enjoyed the performances. Mostly I loved all the court room scenes. There is one thing that bugs me though. If some con artist can get hold of technology to screw with the Enterprise that effectively, that represents a huge potential security risk to the Federation.
Paul Noad
2024-10-06 23:44:11 +0000 UTCOr one that he’s familiar with 😉
tyranusfan
2024-10-06 22:52:43 +0000 UTCShe wants him because she can't have him. A common (but not universal!) behavior among women, in my experience.
Jovet
2024-10-06 22:44:00 +0000 UTCEvery sleight-of-hand magician the past 300 years...
Jovet
2024-10-06 22:43:03 +0000 UTCThis episode stats out as a D, but then graduates to a C- with the Ebineezer Scrooge scene, and then graduates to a C with Picard's fun speech delivery "did she even pick up a single piece of trash?".
Paul Hess
2024-10-06 21:45:57 +0000 UTCI think that is why my impression of the episode is so much different than the majority. I thought she was terrible in this episode, and it really made it hard to watch
Jeffrey
2024-10-06 17:54:21 +0000 UTCIf Ardra were confirmed the Devil, that would throw this from Sci-Fi to fantasy. If however it were left ambiguous, with the point being for the audience to question whether or not actual god/devil types beings exist in our own universe, or if they all have a real world scientific explanation for them, then it's still Sci-Fi. It's also still Sci-Fi in the case here where everything Ardra does is clearly explained. Sci-Fi's main goal is to get us to think about our own world and question things. Sometimes that includes things like questioning the concepts of religion or magic, but also things like societal structures, social expectations, racism, war, politics, tolerance, psychology, human behavior, mental health, or even our own laws. It also likes to explore real technological ways that we can progress as a species. In short, good Sci-Fi is always "about something" it's not just a goofy plot. That's what Devil's Due does as well. On the surface it's just a goofy Scooby Doo plot, but it's really about both questioning religion and prophecies, and exploring how con artists work. You'll often find a lot of social commentary that's easier to tell once you remove humans from the equation and explore universal themes using alien races. Similarly, Fantasy can accomplish almost exactly what Sci-Fi can. The only difference is Sci-Fi is meant to be entirely rooted in the real world somehow, usually as a "realistic" possible future, or a distant planet we've never seen. Fantasy tells it's stories using fantastical realms or creatures, usually implied to somehow still be tied to our own world, like an alternate dimension, things that exist all around us but we can see them or don't notice them, or the distant past. The only real difference between the two is characters and setting.
BN13
2024-10-06 15:37:33 +0000 UTCYou made one comment that has me holding my tounge for the future. Anyway, this episode is fine for me, but I think my main problem with it is the whole Ardra chasing Picard thing. I'm with Picard on this. I forget exactly how he described her, but it was something like rude, vain, uncouth, and vulgar. I think he legit meant that and wasn't attracted to her at all. If anything, he was repulsed by her. Which is fine for the episode. But I'm also repulsed by Ardra in the same way Picard is. The actress does a great job of portraying Ardra, and she's a very interesting character, but seeing her trying to constantly impose herself on Picard who clearly does not want her just makes me feel very uncomfortable throughout most of the episode, and I don't think that sexual aspect was needed. That's actually what bothers me the most about Trek in general. Too often they throw random sex or sexual tension in somehow where it's really not needed, just like a random "high stakes" B-plot. It just feels like producer meddling that gets in the way of the actual story because they think it will boost ratings. There's even a moment in a future Voyager episode that, imo, comments on this, though I'm not sure if that was their intention or not. So if we're ranking this by did the episode do what it was trying to do well, it would be an A for me for that reason. If we're ranking it as how does it compare to every episode in the series, it would be a C for me.
BN13
2024-10-06 14:49:08 +0000 UTCI think it's a fun ride and an A. You could stick this one in season 1 and it would fit perfectly, right down to the "we are beyond silly superstitions" Enterprise crew grand standing.
Mike Rogers
2024-10-06 14:20:08 +0000 UTCSPOILERS :O
Paul
2024-10-06 13:50:47 +0000 UTCIndeed! I do prefer when a sci-fi show stays relatively grounded in science, but it doesn't always have to, unless its premise is designed around being grounded (like The Expanse). SG-1 is more grounded than Star Trek, and Star Trek is more grounded than, say, Dr. Who. Personally, Dr. Who pushes into such wacky territory for me that I can't get invested as much.
Paul
2024-10-06 13:50:32 +0000 UTCInteresting that when Picard was pretending to be Ardra, he was snapping his fingers. Gee, who could he have gotten that from... :D
tyranusfan
2024-10-06 13:47:40 +0000 UTCI can't wait for you guys to get to season 8 ep 29 when it is revealed that Ardra is actually the love child of one Harry Mudd
Prof Moff
2024-10-06 13:47:32 +0000 UTCI loved the music score in this one. Re: Alex's point about Picard "disappearing," I always interpreted that as she actually beamed him away for a moment. We've seen before how people can be held in a transporter beam temporarily (Day of the Dove, The Hunted). I never thought she "cloaked" him like she did the Enterprise.
tyranusfan
2024-10-06 13:29:58 +0000 UTCTrek normally doesn't stay true to science if that's what the story needs. It's a science fiction show, but as it was incredibly well put on an Episode of SG-1: "Science fiction is an existential metaphor that allows us to tell stories about the human condition. Isaac Asimov once said, "Individual science fiction stories may seem as trivial as ever to the blinded critics and philosophers of today, but the core of science fiction, its essence, has become crucial to our salvation, if we are to be saved at all."
Thomas Cole
2024-10-06 10:38:29 +0000 UTCSometimes the situation makes the performance. There is an Episode in season 1 of Strange New Worlds, effectively a holodeck episode, and all the actors seem to be having a blast being just that bit silly, and that translates onscreen to an episode that is really fun to watch. Same here, the actress playing Ardra seems to be having fun, and that comes though on screen, so improves how the performance comes across.
Thomas Cole
2024-10-06 10:33:37 +0000 UTCYou're going to find this more and more as you go through life, not everybody thinks the same things you do
harrypothead42024
2024-10-06 10:10:49 +0000 UTCAlex never likes the episodes where religions are questioned
harrypothead42024
2024-10-06 10:10:03 +0000 UTCI grew up in a hyper-religious town and a hyper-religious part of town, and I honestly thought I was the only person who thought the god story seemed ridiculous to me. This episode is the first external confirmation that I wasn't the only person who had these feelings. For that reason, I will always love this episode, and it's kind of funny too.
harrypothead42024
2024-10-06 09:45:12 +0000 UTCNo joke, but a huge weight is placed on the guest actor / actress performance. If everything else is perfect, but the guest actor isn't? Brings it down, and vice versa.
Paul
2024-10-06 09:19:57 +0000 UTCI think Josh likes this so much because of he views it more as a light-hearted comedy, and Alex still liked it, but less, as his perspective was more on the mystery / law side of it. Thinking of this as more of a comedy, which I'd align with too, it's definitely solid B territory, maybe even A. And it comes together so well precisely so, because Marta Dubois sells it flawlessly.
Paul
2024-10-06 09:19:19 +0000 UTCThese are academy graduates, not high school graduates! Its the same point Geordi tried to make about Barcaly, why is this idiot even on the same ship we are?
Alan Thompson
2024-10-06 07:51:22 +0000 UTC😔 I had a good take too lol
Phil Ken Sebben
2024-10-06 07:09:48 +0000 UTCHahaha, Ardra among the "great performances"?? wtf show are we watching again? This is a parody right, you are just making this up??
Alan Thompson
2024-10-06 07:00:45 +0000 UTCI love that look Alex gave to the camera when Josh brought up how much he liked Ardra. Ohhh that's why you gave it an S. HAHA
D Jammers
2024-10-06 06:23:48 +0000 UTCThat's right, Josh. The little Picard–Geordi conversation gets your appetite whet for what's about to come! I think it's delicious.
Jovet
2024-10-06 06:11:55 +0000 UTCI have a lot of tolerance for Belivability or Suspension of Disbelief. It's pretty high. But, once something breaks out of that, it's over. Usually it's plot ideas that are just so stupid to be as serious as portrayed.
Jovet
2024-10-06 05:57:00 +0000 UTCI mostly agree as well... but I think having Geordi show up and start talking to Picard but not show what he says would have still kept that surprise while giving you some context.
Greg Quinn
2024-10-06 05:21:05 +0000 UTCI was okay with Picard explaining to Data the idea of using fear to motivate by referencing his Ebenezer performance; because that is a somewhat nuanced "human take" that I could see going "over the head" of Data. So Picard explaining it works for me in that context.
Greg Quinn
2024-10-06 05:18:41 +0000 UTCI like it a lot, but I call it an A. I reserve the S rating for all-time classics.
Charlie's Illiteracy
2024-10-06 04:42:54 +0000 UTCPreface: Last Season I said Episodes from Season 3 Onwards are a Matter of Perspective relative to the individual. Body: I'm out for a short while, see you all in Episode 19!!! =D
James Knight
2024-10-06 04:26:55 +0000 UTCThe patron takes really made me laugh this time around. Both of you guys made a strong case for your rating.
THE LORE!!!
2024-10-06 03:20:59 +0000 UTCGreat Harry Mudd comparison. That makes sense.
Badger
2024-10-06 03:13:30 +0000 UTCI agree with Alex in that not having Geordi inform Picard prior to him taking down Ardra would have been better, like a Scooby-Doo episode.
Collin Freeman
2024-10-06 03:06:53 +0000 UTCFear is indeed an excellent motivator. Look at how much insane and evil stuff fear has lead people to do throughout history, even now. But to quote a little green guy, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hatred, and hatred leads to suffering.
Collin Freeman
2024-10-06 03:02:50 +0000 UTC
