Target Audience / UNCUT REACTION - Star Trek TNG S3E16

Even geniuses can be annoying. And are more likely to be socially awkward.

Jovet

2024-06-27 00:33:34 +0000 UTC

Nah. But I can't write a retort until a future episode.

Jovet

2024-06-26 23:38:40 +0000 UTC

@Timothy Nikiforovs Nah, that's just dramatic effect. Maybe trying to make Lal look more child-like. Biological children do that, today.

Jovet

2024-06-26 23:35:16 +0000 UTC

I don't understand how anybody could dislike Wesley, he's a great kid. Smart and mature, literally drives the ship. Anybody would be lucky to have a kid like that. I was like him when I was a kid and nobody really liked me either, not even my father. I guess losers don't like winners.

Kyle Morgan

2024-06-26 07:24:11 +0000 UTC

I LOVE Star Trek but one thing I HATE is that somehow once you are promoted from Captain to Admiral... there is a 90% chance you become fucking evil. It is a blemish that permeates all Star Trek.

Saucy

2024-06-22 03:56:47 +0000 UTC

Is the volume on episode 17 reaction better? Should be louder

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-06-21 18:32:07 +0000 UTC

*Bloodwine 2247 = beer

A G

2024-06-20 14:22:38 +0000 UTC

A request - is there any way you can bump up the volume a bit on these? I have a hard time balancing the volume of your reactions with the episode.

David Clamage

2024-06-19 05:16:40 +0000 UTC

I've watched this episode several dozen times. This was the first time the ending had me blubbering like a baby.

Stephen Morris

2024-06-18 17:43:51 +0000 UTC

Yeah...I cry every time I watch this one.

Todd Pritchett

2024-06-18 07:56:42 +0000 UTC

Forgot to mention, but the first appearances of TNG memes are starting to pile up now with the infamous double facepalm

Timothy Nikiforovs

2024-06-18 02:21:48 +0000 UTC

No he was much more dangerous than that. As Picard said, the state ordering a father to hand over their child?!?!?!

Derek Orr

2024-06-18 01:48:13 +0000 UTC

It’s actually quite appropriate ending given Datas inability to feel emotions

Derek Orr

2024-06-18 01:44:15 +0000 UTC

Wtf? And if some random enterprise officer’s kid grabs a phaser and shoots and kills a diplomat is that Starfleets fault? …oh wait it’s impossible for that to happen because the kid is biological 🙄

Derek Orr

2024-06-18 01:42:54 +0000 UTC

Its not at all complicated. If I break the rules and use the facilities at my workplace to meet and flirt and then procreate at work….I risk loosing my job….not my child!

Derek Orr

2024-06-18 01:41:10 +0000 UTC

I always lose it when she says thank you for my life. Ugh… I can’t help it. So enjoy this journey with you both!!

Devon Cooper

2024-06-18 00:18:42 +0000 UTC

I've always said, Data definitely has emotions, I think his brain is just so complex that he "accidentally" has base level emotions and just doesn't realize it

E Parhas

2024-06-17 23:23:53 +0000 UTC

It’s called drama boys

Scarpad’s Domain

2024-06-17 23:23:01 +0000 UTC

Thanks for the kind words, Jeffrey. And, in fact, my favorite TNG episode is not one of my picks for the best three TNG episodes.

Anthony Bernacchi

2024-06-17 21:45:37 +0000 UTC

Much respect to you for how well written this is. And at the end, you touch on something that I have been feeling a lot since following Alex and Josh here - the difference between a 'favorite episode' and a 'best episode'.

Jeffrey

2024-06-17 20:09:47 +0000 UTC

😭 every damn time

Lady Beyond The Wall

2024-06-17 17:37:48 +0000 UTC

I'd be lying if I didn't tear up at that moment with Data & Lal... absolutely beautiful.

Billy T. Riker

2024-06-17 17:32:06 +0000 UTC

Star Trek in this era was kind of known for allowing cast members to direct every now and then. That trend will continue through the coming shows, so don't be surprised if you keep seeing cast members of these shows direct the occasional episode all the way into Voyager. Quite a few made their direction debut on one of these shows. The producers were very open to that for the most part.

Andreas Schmitt

2024-06-17 16:40:01 +0000 UTC

Working title: “Bloodlines” (which would have made no sense, since Data and Lal do not have blood). This was my late mother’s favorite episode of TNG, and, therefore, of the entire Star Trek franchise. As such, it is more emotional for me to discuss and think about than any other episode. Like “The Measure of a Man” and “The Bonding,” “The Offspring” was a spec script by a first-time TNG writer which became a classic. Although René Echevarria received sole screen credit, multiple members of TNG’s writing team worked on the episode, including Michael Piller and Melinda Snodgrass, who remained on staff through the end of the season. (One reason the producers were eager to make “The Offspring” was to save money by making a “bottle show” after the unusually expensive “Yesterday’s Enterprise.”) Snodgrass voiced a minority opinion of this episode that finds it lacking, calling it “fairly obvious and tired and stupid and I didn’t want to do it… It had a lot to do with ‘The Measure of a Man,’ which I don’t think we needed to do again so soon.” My mother often claimed that she began watching Star Trek because she overheard other children mocking me by calling me “Spock” and “Data,” and she needed to understand what they were talking about. I do not recall this myself – to the best of my recollection, we simply stumbled upon TOS and TNG in syndication around 1990 – but it was what she remembered. There are fans and critics who agree with Snodgrass that “The Offspring” is an unnecessary rehash of the issues “The Measure of a Man” had raised, and that the events of that episode should have permanently resolved those issues in-universe. It is all too realistic, however, that people must fight to keep or reclaim rights that they believed they had already won. (Remember when Supreme Court nominees used to tell the Senate that Roe v. Wade was “settled law”?) During the last few years of my mother’s life, when I was in my late 20s and early 30s, I began to suspect that I was on the autism spectrum. My mother was never able to believe or accept this because it conflicted with her deeply held narrative of my life, which was that I was exceptionally intelligent without any corollary drawbacks. Surprisingly for an episode this late in TNG’s run, Gene Roddenberry also took part in the rewrites. I do not know what his specific contributions to the script were; however, given the overall quality of the result, this may have been his final truly excellent work as a writer for Star Trek. It becomes clearer in “The Offspring” than ever before in TNG that, whether intentionally on the writers’ part or not, Data (and Lal in this episode) reflects the experiences of people on the autism spectrum. This is also true of Spock to an extent, which is one reason why his death scene in Wrath of Khan, isolated from his best friend by a transparent barrier, is so deeply moving. But it is far more obviously true of Data and Lal. Although Alex and Josh are, quite rightly, already fans of Cliff Bole’s work, “The Offspring” marks the debut of TNG’s number one director. Jonathan Frakes had been interested in directing the show for some time, partly out of boredom when waiting around the set between takes. Rick Berman told Frakes he would have to “go to school” before directing an episode, and Frakes spent hundreds of hours in the editing room and on the dubbing stage learning about those aspects of television production. Upon receiving “The Offspring” as his first directorial assignment, Frakes said later, “I was thrilled because I got a Data show and those always work.” (Riker’s absence from the ship for part of the episode is, of course, a device to reduce Frakes’ acting workload in his directorial debut.) Spock has rejected “normal” human emotion and does everything he can to suppress it. Data, like his conceptual predecessor Xon from the Star Trek: Phase II series that never was, wants to experience human emotion but cannot achieve it. The meaning of Lal’s name, “beloved,” has special resonance in the Star Trek universe, since it is also the meaning of the names “Amanda” and “David.” Data encouraging Lal to choose its own gender and appearance is an extraordinary plot point for a television episode from 1990. One can only wonder how many millions of viewers – possibly including my mother – who accepted this as a natural and appropriate rite of passage for a new android would have been disgusted and offended by a human parent allowing their child to do the same thing. For many Aspies like me, “the integration of hand/eye coordination” proceeds “at a slower developmental rate” than for other people; it is extremely difficult for us to master “human cultural and behavioral norms;” we have difficulty understanding the necessity for “selective judgment in verbalizing [our] thoughts;” and we must learn “to supplement innate… behavior with human responses” which are often imitative in nature. I make eye contact with people when I speak to them only because I forced myself to do so until it became habitual, not because it was an innate instinct. Lal’s potential Andorian form is the first Andorian to “appear” on TNG. Its inaccuracy and general half-baked appearance, as well as Troi informing Lal and the audience that there are no other Andorians aboard the Enterprise, reflect the disinterest of Star Trek’s producers in the Andorians during this era. Rick Berman rejected an earlier proposal to feature an Andorian guest character on TNG by saying, “We don’t do antennae on this show.” Since my mother’s death, I have come to suspect that she was also on the autism spectrum (closer to the “normal” end than I am) but was never diagnosed. She would undoubtedly have been even more disturbed by this suggestion applied to herself than applied to me. During the montage of Lal’s progress accompanied by Data’s log entry voiceover, the Revised Final Draft script includes a scene absent from the aired episode in which Lal visits the Bridge and sits in the captain’s chair without being invited to do so. Relating to Josh’s query as to whether the repeated references in TNG to the Daystrom Institute imply that the writers were particularly fond of the episode from which the name “Daystrom” originated, the Revised Final Draft script of “The Offspring” also includes an explicit reference to “The Ultimate Computer,” the TOS episode featuring computer genius Richard Daystrom, in an exchange between Picard and Haftel. Haftel states that “Starfleet feels we’re risking another M-5 catastrophe,” which he blames “on the fact that Doctor Daystrom was working in effective isolation.” I think that this kind of deep-cut continuity reference, which reads like something out of fan fiction, would have been severely distracting for TNG viewers who were unfamiliar with TOS, and I am glad it was omitted. I find Lal’s line, “So without understanding humor I have somehow mastered it,” one of the most distressing moments in all of Star Trek. The last time my mother and I rewatched “The Offspring” before she died, she commented on the turbolift scene in which Data and Lal discuss Lal’s school experience that it must have painful for me to watch as a kid given my own experiences. I replied, “Ripped the heart out of my chest.” Expressing my feelings about this scene to Mom so clearly all those years after first seeing it is a precious memory for me. Lal’s question, “Why is the sky black?,” is more profound and difficult than it seems. See the Wikipedia article on “Olbers’s paradox,” also known as the dark night paradox. Bizarrely, the earliest reasonable answer to Lal’s question came from a non-scientist: American author Edgar Allan Poe! I did not realize until this rewatch how much this episode’s plot also resonated with my own experiences and fears as a kid. Due in part to my difficulties with socialization, my mother chose to homeschool me from third through twelfth grade. Like Data, Mom was able to provide me with the sum of human knowledge. The yellow classroom set previously appeared in one of the deleted scenes from “The Bonding,” when Picard and Troi arrived in the classroom to inform Jeremy of his mother’s death. I spent much of my childhood fearing on some level that the State would find some way to force me to go back to school, but they never did. Picard makes a highly uncharacteristic grammatical error in this episode: “It may not be easy for you and I to see her that way” should be “for you and me,” which may sound wrong but is grammatically correct. I am now 45 years old. I am a college graduate and a contributing member of society. I did not need to experience ten years of bullying, jealousy and resentment in public school to attain that status. One disappointment for me on this rewatch was the realization that Marina Sirtis’ performance in this episode is far below her usual standard. Her line readings are stilted, and her delivery of the pivotal line, “You are scared, aren’t you?” is not strong enough. Perhaps Troi wants to avoid upsetting Lal further, but Sirtis does not sufficiently convey the gravity of the moment to the audience. On the other hand, I had never previously noticed the subtlety with which Brent Spiner plays the moment after the dying Lal tells Data that she loves him: Data seemingly considers lying and saying that he loves Lal but realizes that he must be honest with her. When my mother died, her presence had so enriched my life that I could not allow her to pass out of it. A 1990 exchange of memos between Rick Berman and Michael Piller revealed that Piller preferred “The Offspring” to “Yesterday’s Enterprise,” while Berman had the opposite opinion. (This provides a valuable insight, I think, into their respective personalities and approaches to making Star Trek.) Piller later named “The Measure of a Man,” “The Offspring” and a Season 5 episode as his three favorite installments of TNG. “The Offspring” and a Season 4 episode are Michael Dorn’s two favorites (remarkably, neither is a Worf episode), and Jonathan Frakes has described “The Offspring” as the best sci-fi episode ever written. [SPOILER REDACTED] And so, I cherish my memories of her every day, including the memories of watching Star Trek – and "The Twilight Zone," and "Doctor Who," and "The Lord of the Rings" – with her. And because she exists in my memory, death is not an end for her in this world. Leonard Crofoot (the androgynous version of Lal) previously appeared as Trent (the man who sprays himself with perfume) in “Angel One.” Nicolas Coster (Admiral Haftel) and Judyann Elder (Ballard) both appeared in episodes of "Wonder Woman," Coster in “The Deadly Dolphin” and Elder in “Light-fingered Lady.” No goodbyes. Just good memories. Unlike my mother, I would not rank “The Offspring” as my favorite episode of TNG, if only because it is so devastatingly sad. I do, however, rank it as the best episode of TNG Season 3, one of the three best episodes of TNG overall, and, along with “Amok Time,” one of the ten best episodes of the entire Star Trek franchise. Thank you, Mom, for my life.

Anthony Bernacchi

2024-06-17 16:27:23 +0000 UTC

Well there was the scene when she was asking a million questions in a row without waiting for an answer and Data had to shut her down. Could be an early sign of an issue.

Timothy Nikiforovs

2024-06-17 15:34:45 +0000 UTC

@Target Audience *envious

Jovet

2024-06-17 08:59:12 +0000 UTC

It is possible to intellectually comprehend many emotions without actually having them. I would even go so far as to say it's easier than to explain to a person who has never heard anything what it's like to hear, or a person who has never seen anything what it's like to see.

Jovet

2024-06-17 08:58:46 +0000 UTC

I didn't notice anything wrong with Lal until her meeting with Haftel. Right after that is when Lal sought out Troi to tell her about feeling scared.

Jovet

2024-06-17 08:52:48 +0000 UTC

@Steven Johnson “He was also not responsible for what happened to her.” Oh yes he was responsible. His insistence that he knows what is best for Lal and that she must leave Data's side broke her.

Jovet

2024-06-17 08:48:24 +0000 UTC

I still really like Guinan's “Now, Admiral! You've been in one or two bars in your time!”

Jovet

2024-06-17 08:46:05 +0000 UTC

@Richard Finch Sure was. Starfleet did her in!!

Jovet

2024-06-17 08:42:11 +0000 UTC

@Paul Hess Troi did not appear to sense anything from Lal, either. She was reading Lal's body language and listening to what she was saying. Troi asked Lal, “You are scared, aren't you?” She wouldn't need to ask if she could sense it.

Jovet

2024-06-17 08:40:37 +0000 UTC

A biological child lacks the capacity to kill?

AmmaLeslie

2024-06-17 07:50:40 +0000 UTC

Yep, cried again this time as well. Seen so many times.

Triforce of Shadows

2024-06-17 05:01:25 +0000 UTC

"Last episode and this episode are both perfect episodes" S3E17 - HOLD MY BEER

Matt Newmark

2024-06-17 04:25:05 +0000 UTC

wow yes like the episode The High Ground when they mentioned the year 2024

Narnman

2024-06-17 04:22:53 +0000 UTC

Yet another reason to be jealous of Data

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-06-17 04:11:14 +0000 UTC

Ya. I work with a guy who is a micromanaging jerk who thinks he's gods gift to the job regardless that he's proven wrong a couple of times a week. He's got three kids that all moved out before they were even 18 and haven't talked to him in 20 years. And he doesn't seem to realize that he's the problem.

Monty Crawford

2024-06-17 03:55:53 +0000 UTC

Oh I haven't seen this in years and I was crying at the end of it. It was tragically beautiful.

Linda Thackeray

2024-06-17 03:12:53 +0000 UTC

This means that Data has experienced kissing Riker. Just sayin'.

Glenner7

2024-06-17 02:46:40 +0000 UTC

It was hyperbole 😁 ....mostly

JGoss

2024-06-17 02:41:05 +0000 UTC

There is absolutely no way that Haftell is the worst. He was a mild prick, but his concern about Data's work being lost if Lal was left on the D was entirely valid given how insanely dangerous the Enterprise D's mission was. He was also not responsible for what happened to her.

Steven Johnson

2024-06-17 02:30:43 +0000 UTC

omg those eps

Joe Green

2024-06-17 02:30:23 +0000 UTC

Also always felt to me like those typical scenes in some dramas where the doctor comes out to let the family knobw their loved one didn't make it. They're saddened and a bit shaken about it, but it's also part of their day-to-day so there's some jadediness creeping in.

Nolan

2024-06-17 02:30:02 +0000 UTC

Friggin Niagara Falls

Joe Green

2024-06-17 02:28:29 +0000 UTC

I think the admiral was moved, having finally recognized a father’s desperation to see if his child. I think at that moment, they stopped being androids for him.

Just another Red Shirt

2024-06-17 02:21:10 +0000 UTC

Perhaps, but I got the impression that Data was still missing some element of Soong's work, and much like Maddox assumed he'd got it figured out when that wasn't the case. Data's been functioning in a very stable manner for decades. He's slowly learned to mimic human behavior, but still can't use contractions, still can't genuinely experience emotions(except Q's gift). He's certainly had orders of magnitude more experience than Lal, so there was definitely something different with her. It's probably akin to a truncated version of what happens to AIs in Halo where they essentially think themselves to death in 7 years. She was clearly learning and advancing much faster than Data. I have no doubt Haftel accelerated the process, but my guess was there was still a missing element. After all, Data would have recorded everything he did. If he believed this stressful event was the reason for failure, hard to believe he and/or starfleet wouldn't try again.

Timothy Nikiforovs

2024-06-17 02:16:02 +0000 UTC

I think people overlook the significance of Beverly's "Why do I find that hard to believe?" comment. The crew definitely acts like they believe Data is even more than he thinks he is, but the doctor pretty much just says, "Nah, he has emotions." In recent years I've started thinking Data is more what we now might call neurodivergent. He doesn't necessarily not have feelings, he just can't express them the same way most people can. Come on, he named his kid "beloved."

Joe Concepts

2024-06-17 02:15:13 +0000 UTC

Anyone else wonder what the admiral's kids would say about his parenting? That very dismissive attitude and lack of understanding doesn't suggest the best parental skills.

Joe Concepts

2024-06-17 02:12:22 +0000 UTC

Alex has had a few tears during Trek in the past. Josh never has. (Unless of course you're confusing the two :) )

Joe Concepts

2024-06-17 02:10:48 +0000 UTC

There's a lot of that in movies and TV. "Oh, NOW I get it."

Joe Concepts

2024-06-17 02:08:53 +0000 UTC

But I think the point was supposed to be that while the programming allowed her to feel emotions, any emotions would have eventually caused this malfunction.

Joe Concepts

2024-06-17 02:07:23 +0000 UTC

Wow....that went off like a light bulb in my head. I loved the Partridge Family growing up.

Monty Crawford

2024-06-17 01:58:08 +0000 UTC

Actually I think Lal would have turned out fine with time. Slowly gaining experience to stressful situations a little at a time....like spilling a drink or other minor stress and slowly building up to be able to handle bigger stresses.....that's how humans learn to deal with stress as well.

Monty Crawford

2024-06-17 01:56:30 +0000 UTC

This is one of those episodes where I actually avoid watching it because it's too good. As a father myself, it hits so raw, and I'm not always ready for that emotional ride. I like to think the admiral's mind was changed at the end, being deeply moved by Data's furious attempt to save his daughter from system malfunction. Imagine if this had happened after the forced transfer? How would Data have reacted? Interesting to think about.

Chris Mickelson

2024-06-17 01:56:18 +0000 UTC

it's more a matter of how he acted in that scene. If he'd come out of the room with a nonchalant "well, Lal won't survive. Shame really, would have loved to study her", I'd agree. Clearly his own paternal instincts informed his decision to help, and his feelings after.

Timothy Nikiforovs

2024-06-17 01:28:41 +0000 UTC

"It just wasn't meant to be" didn't feel like he acknowledged he was wrong. It felt like he was shifting any responsibility away to Lal just not working rather than him pushing her into an emotional crisis.

JGoss

2024-06-17 01:10:03 +0000 UTC

Him delivering the emotional gut punch of her dying just felt flat and fake. Sure his feelings were genuine, but that scene just didn't feel EARNED. Anyone else would have been better. Thank goodness we got the scene right after with Data and Lal, otherwise this episode does not stick the landing.

JGoss

2024-06-17 01:08:29 +0000 UTC

Alex didn’t cry when Edith Keeler died?!

Richard Finch

2024-06-17 00:40:38 +0000 UTC

But the collapse was caused when she was told she would be taken from Data. It was a nervous breakdown.

Richard Finch

2024-06-17 00:37:52 +0000 UTC

Although I slways got the impression that by the end, he got it. Seeing Data move faster than he could see, not giving up, to save his daughters life was what finally broke through the Admirals blinding big-picture view to see the individual humanity of the situation.

Nolan

2024-06-17 00:26:32 +0000 UTC

This and Yesterday's Enterprise are 2 extreme examples of what Star Trek can be. Hard science fiction that has all the special effects, or character driven drama that can bring you to tears. Both excellently done, and which one you prefer is just that - personal preference.

Jeffrey

2024-06-17 00:23:27 +0000 UTC

Certainly one of the saddest episodes of the show. As others have said, Spiner is brilliant for being able to evoke emotions in others while showing so little himself. Frakes also did a great job directing for the first time, which no doubt contributed to future chances to direct. On the one hand, Haftel is a POS, even if he did seem to recognize he was wrong at the end. The scene where he talks about Data's hands moving too fast to see chokes me up, and the actor does a great job there, but it's more the fact of understanding how desperately Data was trying to save Lal. That said, I suspect Lal would have suffered a breakdown eventually anyway. Haftel had not yet ordered Data to hand Lal over when she started to malfunction, and her last interaction would seem to indicate her choice to stay on the Enterprise would be respected. Of course she could suspect the admiral would keep pushing, but that wasn't certain. At some point she would have found herself in a stressful situation of some kind that could have had the same result. Unfortunately Haftel was probably right when he said it wasn't meant to be. I do feel to an extent both the briefness of this story being wrapped up in 1 episode and the fairly comedic nature of Lal's behavior in the first half detracts just a bit from the emotional impact at the end. I wonder how this story would have worked as a split up 2 parter, where we see Lal's creation in one episode, and have her appear to be a permanent new fixture to the show, being in the background like O'Brien or Guinan for a few episodes, and then have a second ep dealing with her death. Just a thought. The episode is still brilliant, and definitely a tearjerker. I was 50/50 on if it would get one of you, but now we know.

Timothy Nikiforovs

2024-06-17 00:11:37 +0000 UTC

A&J if you haven't seen Field of Dreams, please add it to the list

JGoss

2024-06-17 00:00:34 +0000 UTC

Yeah, this didn't resonate much with me as a kid. Adulthood changed that. There are a few more down the line where that happened.

JGoss

2024-06-16 23:53:41 +0000 UTC

I think they definitely wrote it for us to believe her emotions were in-universe real. That’s why they specifically added a scene with her in front of Troi so Troi could sense it and then exposition us about it

Paul Hess

2024-06-16 23:52:31 +0000 UTC

@Jovet I guessed it had to be that. If not that, then when Lal grabs Riker

JGoss

2024-06-16 23:51:55 +0000 UTC

I certainly hated Haftel a lot more since becoming a father. This episode is Certified Guy Cry Approved

JGoss

2024-06-16 23:50:07 +0000 UTC

Next May will be 20 years since my dad died

Timothy Nikiforovs

2024-06-16 23:47:08 +0000 UTC

It's music you noticed throughout the episode .... of course it was Ron Jones!

JGoss

2024-06-16 23:42:50 +0000 UTC

We've had insane admirals. We've had treasonous admirals. We've had admirals who kill, conspire, lie, cheat, steal, start wars. But then you have Haftel, the absolute worst of all.

JGoss

2024-06-16 23:40:34 +0000 UTC

Riker gets to be the one scene wonder in this one

JGoss

2024-06-16 23:39:00 +0000 UTC

Lal did not actually have emotional awareness. The perception of having feelings or emotions was a side-effect of neurological collapse.

Jovet

2024-06-16 23:35:56 +0000 UTC

Yeah Leela's homeworld tore me apart. I watched it at my Grandma's and she came downstairs and I told her why I was crying. And she called me a good soul and we chatted and made sandwiches. Now rewatching these episodes with my nephews and answering their questions I make elaborate sandwiches and think how much art and tv affect our curiousties.

A G

2024-06-16 23:35:45 +0000 UTC

“Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence.” - Vince Lombardi

KatWithAttitude

2024-06-16 23:35:38 +0000 UTC

@James Knight I believe you're looking at it from a very 20th Century, "who owns what" mentality.

Jovet

2024-06-16 23:33:13 +0000 UTC

I haven't watched this episode since it originally aired and I didn't really care for it. Now watching it all these years later as a father...it REALLY hits different. May have had a tear or two myself. 🥹

Alan F

2024-06-16 22:41:19 +0000 UTC

The reason you keep hearing the name, Daystrom Institute is due to Dr Richard Daystrom, who appeared in Star Trek the original series season two the ultimate computer. He originally designed the duo Tronic control systems 20 or 30 years prior to the original series, And then invented and designed the Mark five computer that caused all the trouble in the ultimate computer episode. The Daystrom Institute handles All major science advances for Starfleet He’s almost as important as Zephrim Cochran discovering warp drive

Thicketdweller

2024-06-16 22:23:07 +0000 UTC

I forgot this episode was where that discussion of striving for an ideal one may never reach but still attains meaning out of it happened. I love that philosophy. I think it represents Starfleet and Star Trek so well, because the future of humanity in Star Trek is an ideal. Humans will never reach perfection, but by trying to reach it they get closer than if they never tried. It's a philosophy I try to live by.

Nolan

2024-06-16 20:47:30 +0000 UTC

I think Hallie Todd is perfect, but I will admit on first viewing I had only ever seen her on an episode of Golden Girls as Blanche’s “easy” niece, and every time she came on screen I could hear “Sophia” deadpan “Girl’s a slut” 😂

Glenn Johnson Barnes

2024-06-16 20:43:14 +0000 UTC

Over the years, when I’ve encountered the many TOS fans out there who simply will not give TNG a chance, I always use this episode to show them just how great TNG can be. It usually works.

Rich Cirivilleri

2024-06-16 20:40:30 +0000 UTC

I cannot cannot cannot cannot agree more with Josh’s final assessment. And I guess I would’ve lost the bet. I would’ve bet that Alex would’ve been the messy one at the end.😀

Rich Cirivilleri

2024-06-16 20:36:46 +0000 UTC

I actually did cut up onions today, but they didn't make my eyes water as much as this episode did.

KatWithAttitude

2024-06-16 20:21:46 +0000 UTC

Of course it'd be fraking Frakes to finally break Josh.

Nolan

2024-06-16 20:19:51 +0000 UTC

Back when this originally aired, I thought it was a lukewarm episode. In particular, I didn't like the performance by the actress playing Lal. But I like it more this time around.

Tom Occhipinti

2024-06-16 20:06:30 +0000 UTC

You delivered this on Father's Day. Perfect timing.

Tom Occhipinti

2024-06-16 20:00:23 +0000 UTC

There's a few like this where the emotions are so intense that I have to be in the right mood to watch them. Sort of like the Futurama episodes about Fry's dog or his lucky clover.

Trouty McTroutTrout

2024-06-16 19:50:18 +0000 UTC

1st off, Alex's Trek hoodie is dope af. 2nd, somebody won a lot of money in the "who's gonna cry 1st" betting pool. How did you like Frakes directing debut? You guys picked up on a lot of really cool details which I always find fascinating. Alex caught something I never did (the Admiral calling Data "remarkable" the same as the guy from Measure of a Man). I still get emotional at that end scene and probably always will. This is part of why season 3 is so well regarded - the contrast of different styles of banger episodes that give depth to the Star Trek universe. Really glad you enjoyed it!

Trouty McTroutTrout

2024-06-16 19:48:09 +0000 UTC

Thank you for my life.

Steven Johnson

2024-06-16 19:12:28 +0000 UTC

I cried at this one. So well done, all the actors did well. And it's to the point when I have my TNG binges, I kinda skip this one, because the emotions at the end are too much. And it's Father's Day, and sadly, my Dad passed away this month eight years ago. And I wasn't there at his side. So this every year this day sucks. I'll see how I feel later, but might hold off on this one today. I'll probably save it for the next episode, so I can binge both, and emotionally jump from one to the next and the impact is less. If you guys enjoyed it and felt the same emotional impact, that's all I need.

Firekrys FWO

2024-06-16 19:07:25 +0000 UTC

This episode makes me cry every single time, especially when she finally says…”thank you for my life.” OMG. This is an amazing episode, and frankly, at least as far as emotional impact, one of the best of the series.

Chris S.

2024-06-16 19:01:31 +0000 UTC

I always tear up at this episode.

John Rose

2024-06-16 19:00:22 +0000 UTC

Valid point as is Lovok's. But at least Data now has a first person point of view memory of kissing commander Riker. So there's that....

Greg Quinn

2024-06-16 18:59:54 +0000 UTC

Thank you for being comfortable enough to share that with all of us. Having had a similar experience, I am truly sorry for your loss, Monty.

Collin Freeman

2024-06-16 18:55:45 +0000 UTC

If the android killed a diplomat, it was built by a Star Fleet Officer using Starfleet resources, thus Starfleet would be responsible for, potentially, starting an interstellar war. It's a big picture thing. A biological child lacks the capacity to kill, change their appearance & voice, access computer systems, etc.

James Knight

2024-06-16 18:49:11 +0000 UTC

Spectacular reaction, guys! This one's another TNG masterpiece. More to come... this season!

Lovok

2024-06-16 18:40:39 +0000 UTC

I think the ending is perfect, only because Data can't FEEL the emotional weight of what happened. It actually IS business as normal for him now, only with the enrichment of that experience within him going forward. Anyone else but Data, yeah, that would be a terrible final scene.

Lovok

2024-06-16 18:39:33 +0000 UTC

I'm right there with you, Josh. This one brought a tear to my eye too. Excellent episode.

John Deadcorn

2024-06-16 18:02:22 +0000 UTC

People that have sex on a star ship used Federation facilities to pork. So what.

Jovet

2024-06-16 17:56:11 +0000 UTC

50:10 Your wife might appreciate it, though, Josh. 🙂

Jovet

2024-06-16 17:51:22 +0000 UTC

Reaction to the director of the episode. 😀

Jovet

2024-06-16 17:49:12 +0000 UTC

45:10 CALLED IT!

Jovet

2024-06-16 17:44:08 +0000 UTC

Great episode but what a ridiculous copout ending after she died. It's all fine, I incorporated her back into my systems. Ready for warp 3. Lal reached emotion and love and then died, so how about a nod or two to mourning before rolling the final credits.

Paul Hess

2024-06-16 17:37:23 +0000 UTC

32:25 Just like the Romulan defector accused the Federation of... can't wait to exploit.

Jovet

2024-06-16 17:31:41 +0000 UTC

24:20 Anytime Data uses a contraction is a goof. He's not supposed to. The production team lets them slip several times.

Jovet

2024-06-16 17:23:36 +0000 UTC

I’m so sorry for your loss

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-06-16 17:15:34 +0000 UTC

14:10 Yes.

Jovet

2024-06-16 17:13:02 +0000 UTC

I lost a child myself 20 years ago, I tend to avoid this episode. But it's a great one and great reaction guys.

Monty Crawford

2024-06-16 16:53:09 +0000 UTC

Jonathan Frakes: "For my first directing job they gave me a Data episode and I was thrilled, because Data episodes ALWAYS work."

JD Nevesytrof

2024-06-16 16:40:52 +0000 UTC

Healthy masculinity, WE HATE IT

JD Nevesytrof

2024-06-16 16:38:22 +0000 UTC

Data stated that he followed all appropriate star fleet protocols.

Pokeysaurus

2024-06-16 16:32:29 +0000 UTC

It's a complicated scenario because Data used Starfleet's facility and resources to create a new sentient form of life without permission, or at the very least stating his intentions. If Data had returned from shoreleave with Lal, having created her elsewhere, the matter of protocol would solely have been "first contact" with a new form of life. Ultimately the protocols exist to protect everyone, those labs could be used to create all manner of dangerous things to further knowledge and advance technology forward. Finally, the previous Soong type android that joined the ship tried to feed the crew to the Crystalline Entity, so Haftel's position is understandable even though it is not the "human" thing to do.

James Knight

2024-06-16 16:23:22 +0000 UTC

I rarely watch this episode because I start bawling when the Admiral comes out and explains what happened.

Michael Figueroa

2024-06-16 16:22:24 +0000 UTC

Episode is the first TV sale by a young writer named Rene Echevarria. Who is the 2nd of what will be eventually the four young writers who will end up being the primary writers for TNG (all of whom will have fairly successful long careers working in Hollywood) Like Moore, he is given full writing credit on the episode, but his work needed a heavy rewrite. In Fact unlike Moore, is full pass on the episode was judge poorly. Melinda Snodgrass did a heavy restructure and rewrite, and Michael Pillar then did a full pass himself on the script. By this stage in the show, they were having a very difficult time getting scripts, let alone getting them completed. Piller had pissed off the established writing core that were continued from season 2. While in most cases the head writers might do a final light pass on all scripts. Piller was having to do significant work on almost every script, it got bad enough that he realized that he couldn't keep pace (with the rest of his duties) if he continued to work that heavily on each script. So he enlisted his friend Ira Steven Behr to alternate rotation on scripts (in a manner similar to Jones and McCarthy on Score, or Legato and Curry on SFX), to make sure the scripts were delivered on time and with enough quality to be worthy of airing, Piller apparently had such a poor relationship with he writing staff, that Behr had to work as a go between. The younger writers who came on staff talk about him being a stern father. But that they did learn a lot from him. Frakes asked exec producer Rick Berman about the possibility of directing. So Berman gave him his shot, But insisted he have to go to an informal directing school. Basically spending so many weeks shadowing others in seeing what the job entailed. Thanks to Frakes success (he becomes one of Trek best directors), this lead to many people in Trek being given the chance to start directing careers. With three of them now having long lasting careers not in acting but directing of tv shows.

Mark Wood

2024-06-16 16:19:26 +0000 UTC

Kinda perfect this landed on Father's Day

Katie Jackson

2024-06-16 16:05:27 +0000 UTC

first let me say Brent Spiner is my favorite so i'm biased when i watch this - but this is my fav TNG episode - all the commentary and discussion of rights needed, but such great love, and on fathers day as well!!! thanks for these wonderful videos

jan

2024-06-16 16:04:51 +0000 UTC

HR warning. Riker again may be called into HR. Not long ago may have been inappropriate with the scientist wife and now a minor. We may have a real problem here no. 1

Prof Moff

2024-06-16 16:01:55 +0000 UTC

I’ve been so excited for you guys to get to these last two episodes, and your reactions did not disappoint :) Two of the best—but don’t worry, there’s plenty more to come!

Benjamin Azure

2024-06-16 16:00:17 +0000 UTC

Nice show to have on Father's Day. And great pop at Jonathan Frakes director credit.

Collin Freeman

2024-06-16 15:58:26 +0000 UTC

Rizker should be ashamed going after Data's daughter like that! What are your intentions indeed sir!?

Sequiro

2024-06-16 15:54:21 +0000 UTC

Top tier episode that makes me cry every time. Even though Data cannot feel emotions, he evokes them so strongly in others. Remarkable character writing.

Clyde Frog

2024-06-16 15:48:06 +0000 UTC

Same here. I did that the entire time the boys were watching this. Lmao

Clyde Frog

2024-06-16 15:40:40 +0000 UTC

Woke up early to watch this before my kids remember it's father's day and start talking to me. I was only asked for breakfast once before I made it through.

Steve Boshear

2024-06-16 15:32:58 +0000 UTC

For me this and Yesterdays Enterprise is amongst the batch of episodes which, along with the next, represent Trek storytelling at its absolutely best.

Darren Seal

2024-06-16 15:15:17 +0000 UTC

I've rewatched this episode a fair bit and that ending still makes me cry every single time, including just now watching it with you guys. Great emotional character moments like that just really move me, and I'm not even a parent! Glad both of you liked the episode as well and I can't wait for your discussion.

Ryan Caulfield

2024-06-16 15:13:32 +0000 UTC

I know what I am doing during lunch on Father's Day today and it might involve tearing up over an android fighting for the life of his child.

Strife

2024-06-16 15:10:08 +0000 UTC

... ... Happy sniff... Father's Day... 😔🤧🥺🥹😢😢😭

A G

2024-06-16 15:04:51 +0000 UTC

yeah beautiful episode and a legit tearjerker

James Bottas

2024-06-16 15:03:54 +0000 UTC

GOT 'EM!! Awesome. Glad you liked it, Josh.

StonyD

2024-06-16 14:47:48 +0000 UTC

Whenever i watch this I'm already blinking back tears from the start because I know what's going to happen. And you're not finished with the emotional wringer yet.

KatWithAttitude

2024-06-16 14:35:11 +0000 UTC

Yes...good point!

David Wayne Fox

2024-06-16 14:31:37 +0000 UTC

i haven’t seen this episode in 30 years and it moved me to tears in ways it didn’t then. i have to give so much credit to actress playing the daughter. she was tremendous. all the acting was top notch and Frakes deserves credit for getting the most out of his actors. plus his comedic timing on the kiss in Ten Forward was brilliant. i just wish we had more of everyone but the Star Fleet dick of the week. they could have done two hours of just data and his daughter i would have been down for that and crying the whole time. this episode really is great in its placement in the season coming down from the action of 15 and showing us the range of what Star Trek can be

David Marcoot

2024-06-16 14:28:39 +0000 UTC

I was wondering where I'd seen it before! "C'mon, get happyyyy!!!"

Jeff

2024-06-16 14:23:43 +0000 UTC

Am I the only one who never gets Closed Captions anymore?

Steven McDowell

2024-06-16 14:15:20 +0000 UTC

Jonathan Frakes is a fine actor, but this is a case of someone finding their “true calling” so to speak. A terrific director, and a real gift to the franchise.

Glenn Johnson Barnes

2024-06-16 14:12:21 +0000 UTC

I don’t know what the hell that thumbnail is but I gotta watch it!

Paul Hess

2024-06-16 14:06:58 +0000 UTC

How beautiful (and sad) is this in all our own "journey"?

Andrew Bassey

2024-06-16 14:05:49 +0000 UTC

Riker noping the fuck right out of there when he comes back is the best...

Brendon Waldron

2024-06-16 13:49:06 +0000 UTC

Epic hoodie Alex. Hope both of you guys enjoyed this episode.

Captain Proton

2024-06-16 13:44:41 +0000 UTC

Dead daughter episode for my father's day present. Right in the feels.

EnigmaticPenguin

2024-06-16 13:44:25 +0000 UTC

The painting is inspired by the work of Dutch painter Piet Mondrian, who pioneered a style known as neoplasticism about a century ago. The motif would be most recognisable to people as the design on the side of the family's bus in The Partridge Family.

Regan

2024-06-16 13:38:56 +0000 UTC

The perfect episode for Father’s Day, thanks guys! 😭

Matt Everkoul

2024-06-16 13:38:44 +0000 UTC

The dig at Shatner was uncalled for. But frakkin' hilarious.

Dmitriy.0

2024-06-16 13:34:27 +0000 UTC

The start of a wonderful directing career for Jonathan Frakes... 🎥

The Ninth Doctor

2024-06-16 13:16:22 +0000 UTC

Grief is love with nowhere to go...

The Ninth Doctor

2024-06-16 13:15:48 +0000 UTC

What is grief, if not love persevering?

SinocTheHodgeheg

2024-06-16 13:12:48 +0000 UTC

Omg the thumbnail, I'm not ready 😭

llama

2024-06-16 13:10:48 +0000 UTC

UNCUT REACTION - Star Trek TNG S3E16 - The Offspring

Comments

Even geniuses can be annoying. And are more likely to be socially awkward.

Nah. But I can't write a retort until a future episode.

@Timothy Nikiforovs Nah, that's just dramatic effect. Maybe trying to make Lal look more child-like. Biological children do that, today.

I don't understand how anybody could dislike Wesley, he's a great kid. Smart and mature, literally drives the ship. Anybody would be lucky to have a kid like that. I was like him when I was a kid and nobody really liked me either, not even my father. I guess losers don't like winners.

I LOVE Star Trek but one thing I HATE is that somehow once you are promoted from Captain to Admiral... there is a 90% chance you become fucking evil. It is a blemish that permeates all Star Trek.

Is the volume on episode 17 reaction better? Should be louder

*Bloodwine 2247 = beer

A request - is there any way you can bump up the volume a bit on these? I have a hard time balancing the volume of your reactions with the episode.

I've watched this episode several dozen times. This was the first time the ending had me blubbering like a baby.

Yeah...I cry every time I watch this one.

Forgot to mention, but the first appearances of TNG memes are starting to pile up now with the infamous double facepalm

No he was much more dangerous than that. As Picard said, the state ordering a father to hand over their child?!?!?!

It’s actually quite appropriate ending given Datas inability to feel emotions

Wtf? And if some random enterprise officer’s kid grabs a phaser and shoots and kills a diplomat is that Starfleets fault? …oh wait it’s impossible for that to happen because the kid is biological 🙄

Its not at all complicated. If I break the rules and use the facilities at my workplace to meet and flirt and then procreate at work….I risk loosing my job….not my child!

I always lose it when she says thank you for my life. Ugh… I can’t help it. So enjoy this journey with you both!!

I've always said, Data definitely has emotions, I think his brain is just so complex that he "accidentally" has base level emotions and just doesn't realize it

It’s called drama boys

Thanks for the kind words, Jeffrey. And, in fact, my favorite TNG episode is not one of my picks for the best three TNG episodes.

Much respect to you for how well written this is. And at the end, you touch on something that I have been feeling a lot since following Alex and Josh here - the difference between a 'favorite episode' and a 'best episode'.

😭 every damn time

I'd be lying if I didn't tear up at that moment with Data & Lal... absolutely beautiful.

Well there was the scene when she was asking a million questions in a row without waiting for an answer and Data had to shut her down. Could be an early sign of an issue.

@Target Audience *envious

It is possible to intellectually comprehend many emotions without actually having them. I would even go so far as to say it's easier than to explain to a person who has never heard anything what it's like to hear, or a person who has never seen anything what it's like to see.

I didn't notice anything wrong with Lal until her meeting with Haftel. Right after that is when Lal sought out Troi to tell her about feeling scared.

@Steven Johnson “He was also not responsible for what happened to her.” Oh yes he was responsible. His insistence that he knows what is best for Lal and that she must leave Data's side broke her.

I still really like Guinan's “Now, Admiral! You've been in one or two bars in your time!”

@Richard Finch Sure was. Starfleet did her in!!

@Paul Hess Troi did not appear to sense anything from Lal, either. She was reading Lal's body language and listening to what she was saying. Troi asked Lal, “You *are* scared, aren't you?” She wouldn't need to ask if she could sense it.

A biological child lacks the capacity to kill?

Yep, cried again this time as well. Seen so many times.

"Last episode and this episode are both perfect episodes" S3E17 - HOLD MY BEER

wow yes like the episode The High Ground when they mentioned the year 2024

Yet another reason to be jealous of Data

Oh I haven't seen this in years and I was crying at the end of it. It was tragically beautiful.

This means that Data has experienced kissing Riker. Just sayin'.

It was hyperbole 😁 ....mostly

There is absolutely no way that Haftell is the worst. He was a mild prick, but his concern about Data's work being lost if Lal was left on the D was entirely valid given how insanely dangerous the Enterprise D's mission was. He was also not responsible for what happened to her.

omg those eps

Also always felt to me like those typical scenes in some dramas where the doctor comes out to let the family knobw their loved one didn't make it. They're saddened and a bit shaken about it, but it's also part of their day-to-day so there's some jadediness creeping in.

Friggin Niagara Falls

I think the admiral was moved, having finally recognized a father’s desperation to see if his child. I think at that moment, they stopped being androids for him.

Anyone else wonder what the admiral's kids would say about his parenting? That very dismissive attitude and lack of understanding doesn't suggest the best parental skills.

Alex has had a few tears during Trek in the past. Josh never has. (Unless of course you're confusing the two :) )

There's a lot of that in movies and TV. "Oh, NOW I get it."

But I think the point was supposed to be that while the programming allowed her to feel emotions, any emotions would have eventually caused this malfunction.

Wow....that went off like a light bulb in my head. I loved the Partridge Family growing up.

Actually I think Lal would have turned out fine with time. Slowly gaining experience to stressful situations a little at a time....like spilling a drink or other minor stress and slowly building up to be able to handle bigger stresses.....that's how humans learn to deal with stress as well.

it's more a matter of how he acted in that scene. If he'd come out of the room with a nonchalant "well, Lal won't survive. Shame really, would have loved to study her", I'd agree. Clearly his own paternal instincts informed his decision to help, and his feelings after.

"It just wasn't meant to be" didn't feel like he acknowledged he was wrong. It felt like he was shifting any responsibility away to Lal just not working rather than him pushing her into an emotional crisis.

Him delivering the emotional gut punch of her dying just felt flat and fake. Sure his feelings were genuine, but that scene just didn't feel EARNED. Anyone else would have been better. Thank goodness we got the scene right after with Data and Lal, otherwise this episode does not stick the landing.

Alex didn’t cry when Edith Keeler died?!

But the collapse was caused when she was told she would be taken from Data. It was a nervous breakdown.

Although I slways got the impression that by the end, he got it. Seeing Data move faster than he could see, not giving up, to save his daughters life was what finally broke through the Admirals blinding big-picture view to see the individual humanity of the situation.

This and Yesterday's Enterprise are 2 extreme examples of what Star Trek can be. Hard science fiction that has all the special effects, or character driven drama that can bring you to tears. Both excellently done, and which one you prefer is just that - personal preference.

A&J if you haven't seen Field of Dreams, please add it to the list

Yeah, this didn't resonate much with me as a kid. Adulthood changed that. There are a few more down the line where that happened.

I think they definitely wrote it for us to believe her emotions were in-universe real. That’s why they specifically added a scene with her in front of Troi so Troi could sense it and then exposition us about it

@Jovet I guessed it had to be that. If not that, then when Lal grabs Riker

I certainly hated Haftel a lot more since becoming a father. This episode is Certified Guy Cry Approved

Next May will be 20 years since my dad died

It's music you noticed throughout the episode .... of course it was Ron Jones!

We've had insane admirals. We've had treasonous admirals. We've had admirals who kill, conspire, lie, cheat, steal, start wars. But then you have Haftel, the absolute worst of all.

Riker gets to be the one scene wonder in this one

Lal did not actually have emotional awareness. The perception of having feelings or emotions was a side-effect of neurological collapse.

“Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence.” - Vince Lombardi

@James Knight I believe you're looking at it from a very 20th Century, "who owns what" mentality.

I haven't watched this episode since it originally aired and I didn't really care for it. Now watching it all these years later as a father...it REALLY hits different. May have had a tear or two myself. 🥹

I think Hallie Todd is perfect, but I will admit on first viewing I had only ever seen her on an episode of Golden Girls as Blanche’s “easy” niece, and every time she came on screen I could hear “Sophia” deadpan “Girl’s a slut” 😂

Over the years, when I’ve encountered the many TOS fans out there who simply will not give TNG a chance, I always use this episode to show them just how great TNG can be. It usually works.

I cannot cannot cannot cannot agree more with Josh’s final assessment. And I guess I would’ve lost the bet. I would’ve bet that Alex would’ve been the messy one at the end.😀

I actually did cut up onions today, but they didn't make my eyes water as much as this episode did.

Of course it'd be fraking Frakes to finally break Josh.

Back when this originally aired, I thought it was a lukewarm episode. In particular, I didn't like the performance by the actress playing Lal. But I like it more this time around.

You delivered this on Father's Day. Perfect timing.

There's a few like this where the emotions are so intense that I have to be in the right mood to watch them. Sort of like the Futurama episodes about Fry's dog or his lucky clover.

Thank you for my life.

@Paul Hess Troi did not appear to sense anything from Lal, either. She was reading Lal's body language and listening to what she was saying. Troi asked Lal, “You are scared, aren't you?” She wouldn't need to ask if she could sense it.

... ... Happy sniff... Father's Day... 😔🤧🥺🥹😢😢😭