UNCUT REACTION - Star Trek TNG S3E4 - Who Watches the Watchers

We will never forget Palmer!

Adam from Germany

@Darek Orr I'll reiterate it: human religion is far more complicated than just people lying to each other.

Jovet

@Derek Orr “religions are a belief in the supernatural” There's that dangerous word again. Was the Edo god supernatural?

Jovet

People don't hate disco for being "diverse", or they would have hated TNG/DS9/Voyager for the same reason. It's pure copium to make such a provably false statement. The nerdier trek fans hate discovery because it craps all over continuity and visual canon, and they along with the rest of the detractors dislike the poor quality writing and several characters that come off as unlikeable and unprofessional, especially early on. SNW is just as diverse and inclusive as Disco and has been much better received(gee I wonder why). People love Lower Decks even though the main character ticks off the same 2 boxes as Disco's MC. Again, it's a ridiculous statement divorced from reality. Notice how in trek between 87 and 05, it didn't MATTER that a certain character was a woman, or black, or asian, or anything else. It might matter that Worf say is the first klingon in starfleet, but it's not like he's struggling to fit in constantly or the crew holds it against him. Roddenberry wanted these silly little things to NOT MATTER anymore, whereas in new trek, especially disco, those differences are elevated as ALL THAT MATTERS. That's the regressive and racist part. Imagine a classic work of art painted by one of the greats from history. Now imagine giving a 3 year old some water colors and tell them to copy the painting. Discovery is the result.

Timothy Nikiforovs

no its pretty clearly anti religious.....its a hey look if way back in our past we where more like Vulcans and these people and got rid of religion sooner, we would be so much further along already

Derek Orr

Roddenberry clearly was creating TNG to be atheist and secular humanist and anti capitalist....and also a wee bit too kinky/sexy and oddly regressive mysoginstic. The statements on cant be conservative and a trek fan....are obviously dependent on your definition of conservative (which does vary a lot even from UK to Canada to USA, even before our current extra whacky era of politics) ....but its a pretty solid clear message that she was sending that all this hate for the new shows being woke and hate on DISCO for being inclusive and diverse etc is just freaking weird ....Star Trek has always been those wonderful things.

Derek Orr

frame rate and format can affect timings of shows. Same with NTSC vs HD/Blue Ray etc

Derek Orr

Roddenberry's atheist secular humanist beliefs though were clearly at play in this and other episodes....and yes plenty of the opposite influences sneak in to Star Trek as well...and while I dont believe in the Roddenberry fundamentalism approach that some have, that what he said overrules others....it is worth noting the clear directions he wanted TNG to go in, from his influences in the early seasons as well as the novelization of TMP

Derek Orr

honestly the very notion of false or true religions is kinda silly....like which of the thousands of dead gods and religions was false and which was true? Why not Thor? why Buddha? why Jesus?.....the lack of a statement on slavery being wrong....is like reason number 101,000 why belief in sky dictators is holding us back.

Derek Orr

its especially powerful and beautiful since he also talks about these people one day making it to the stars...

Derek Orr

at its core though, religions are a belief in the supernatural

Derek Orr

Roddenberry was an atheist and his influence on that matter was quite evident in TNG world building

Derek Orr

ya no it was religion he was advocating against

Derek Orr

The show certainly on occasion has direct religious elements in some stories...but they come off as cringe (Bread & Circuses for example) ...end of the day Roddenberry was a staunch atheist and thats what he wanted to portray in TNG....along with his anti capitalist message and utopian no more money future etc

Derek Orr

Curious why you dont like it then?

Derek Orr

It's still a quite clear (and refreshing) portrayal of how we need to shed off silly old superstitions and religions in order to venture to the stars.

Derek Orr

It's a nice nod to them for sure. and a clear distinction with how early in their development they got rid of religion and superstition

Derek Orr

It's not necessarily anti-religious it's anti fundamentalist

StormFather45

Perhaps the writer wrote "supernatural" but really intended "superstition."

Jovet

Except this wasn't made today. It was made 20 years after TOS (over 30 years ago). And it isn't simply religion that's being attacked here. It's the belief in God itself (even today, atheists still only make up about 5% of the population). This was just a very weird episode overall.

Nerd's Gold

Savage[s]!! 😏

Jovet

Also needs to be remembered the vulcans had to nearly destroy themselves before they figured out that logic was the best way for them. Mintakans actually seem a lot less volatile than OG vulcans were supposed to be

Timothy Nikiforovs

Nice comment. Except for the 12th paragraph.

Jovet

I have older DVD rips on my computer, and I start the episode and pause it when the first scene starts (usually a shot of the Enterprise). I then play your video and unpause my video when the same thing happens on your screen. It may be a few more seconds into the video, but it's always stayed well-synch'd.... until now. The difference is only 0.5-1 second per 15 minutes, though.

Jovet

@Timothy Nikiforovs 👍👍👍

Jovet

@Anthony Bernacci Q is often called omniscient, but I don't believe that he is. For me, omniscience is the first step of being considered "god-like." Q may have extraordinary abilities, but I cannot put him that high. I also believe this is why Q gets so upset when Picard suggests the future destiny of mankind as god-like in "Hide and Q." Nagilum is not a god, or god-like, except (perhaps) in his own domain. He was able to communicate directly with Picard once the ship was outside of his domain, but there's no evidence he could have done any "magic" outside of it. Kevin is a tricky one. He obviously has far-reaching perceptions and abilities, knowing that it was the Husnock that were attacking, and eradicating them all across the cosmos. We can almost safely assume he did all this without leaving Rana IV, as his wife would have noticed him gone and she didn't know what he truly was. But we won't ever know how truly omniscient Kevin is, or any limits on his ability. There really are only two types of gods: Gods with no limits, and Gods who must exist and influence within the rules of the cosmos (e.g. the speed of causality). I can't say I believe in the former.

Jovet

Society is a lot less religious today than it was in the 60s. I am confident that messages perceived as "anti-religious" would not have been tolerated as well.

Jovet

@Narnman I disagree that Liko is religious at all, let alone "hardcore." He's searching for truth, and he's not objectively evaluating the facts with sound reasoning to derive his truth.

Jovet

I never picked up on how the mintaken "reasonable" is meant to mirror the vulcan logic

tanuki trouble

“Maybe He’s not out there, Bones. Maybe He’s right here… human heart.” This episode’s title is a translation of the Latin phrase “Quis custodiet Ipsos custodes?,” an (apocryphal) quotation from the Roman poet Juvenal. This is the second Star Trek episode title derived from a Latin phrase; the first was “Bread and Circuses” (“Panem et circenses”), also a phrase from Juvenal, which was also the title of an episode containing potentially controversial commentary on religion. It seems to me that “Who Watches the Watchers” appeals most to two types of viewers: (1) committed atheists and agnostics, and (2) adherents of a specific religion with faith so deep as to be unshakeable. My late mother fell into the latter category. She was a devout Catholic, and “Who Watches the Watchers,” the most overtly anti-religious episode in all of Star Trek (which won a well-deserved award from a humanist group), was also one of her favorite episodes. (Incidentally, Mom was even worse than Alex at remembering episode titles, but “Who Watches the Watchers” was one of the few titles she had absolutely no difficulty remembering.) “Who Watches the Watchers” appeals to viewers such as my mother, I believe, largely because of Picard’s actions in it. In this episode Picard acts not only out of loyalty to the Prime Directive but out of his own irreligion. Since Picard, like most 24th-century humans, does not believe in gods, he is horrified by the idea that the Mintakans might take a false path into religion by worshipping Picard himself as a god. However, Picard would have responded to the situation the same way if he had been a devout adherent of a specific religion: since the Prime Directive would forbid him to proselytize his own faith to the Mintakans, he would wish to leave them free for the true god or gods to become known to them in their own time. In other words, Picard is the character with whom this episode invites viewers of faith to identify, despite his irreligion being more explicit here than in any other episode. Viewers with less certainty about their religious beliefs or lack thereof are less likely to enjoy “Who Watches the Watchers.” One of the things that has most powerfully shaken my faith as an adult is my being disabused of the idea, which I fully believed when I was younger, that everyone really believes the same things, but does not realize that they do, and that all art ultimately leads to a greater understanding of God, whether the artist believes in Him or not. The realization that large numbers of writers, actors and filmmakers genuinely have beliefs about the most important aspects of existence that are irreconcilably different from those in which I was raised and are willing to express those beliefs consciously and deliberately in their work without regard for the sensitivities of religious viewers has made it harder for me to enjoy a great deal of pop culture. This is especially true of British pop culture because of how deeply secularized modern Britain is. When British books, films, and TV shows such as "Doctor Who" take an irreligious worldview for granted, they are not pushing against resistance from their viewers, but rather are reinforcing the audience’s beliefs, just as the Christian art of earlier eras did throughout the Western world. I still find Star Trek episodes such as “Who Watches the Watchers” or “Who Mourns for Adonais?” more enjoyable than their British equivalents because their writers were demonstrating a willingness to challenge their viewers’ beliefs, but this is becoming progressively less true of modern media even in the United States, in which a series as deeply antitheist as "Family Guy" (for the first fifteen years of which Ron Jones, who wrote this episode’s score, was the composer) has now been hugely popular for a quarter-century. Episodes like “Who Watches the Watchers,” whether on Star Trek or "Doctor Who," serve as reminders that the writers and producers (and, in some cases, directors and actors) of my favorite series do not share my beliefs and may not even respect them. This is why such productions do not disturb viewers such as my mother: their faith is so unshakeable that they consider other people’s beliefs irrelevant to them, and people of both faith and good will, such as my mother, can enjoy and celebrate the work of artists whose faith differs from their own. Those of us, however, who find both the argument from religious experience and the argument from nonbelief compelling would find it much easier to believe in one god, a billion gods or no god if everyone else believed the same thing, and if art, music, and culture from throughout history reinforced that belief. I realize, however, that, unlike my feelings about the enforced relocation of the Tau Cygna V settlers in “The Ensigns of Command,” my discomfort with “Who Watches the Watchers” is my own problem, not the episode’s (and other Patrons will probably disagree with me about it as vehemently as they did about “Ensigns”). “Who Watches the Watchers” represents TNG at its strongest, and richly deserves the acclaim it has received over the years from my mother and others. “The Survivors” and “Who Watches the Watchers” feature TNG’s first location filming since the holodeck scenes in “Pen Pals” the previous season. As Alex and Josh recognized, “Who Watches the Watchers” marks Star Trek’s return to Vasquez Rocks, previously seen in “Shore Leave,” “Arena,” “The Alternative Factor,” “Friday’s Child” and Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. The year after “Who Watches the Watchers” aired, Ray Wise (Liko) debuted in his best-known role, that of Leland Palmer, the father of Laura Palmer, the teenager whose murder was the original focus of "Twin Peaks." He also played a Council of Nine member on "Agent Carter." John McLiam (Fento) appeared in small roles in three episodes of the original "Twilight Zone:" “The Shelter,” “The Midnight Sun” and “Miniature.” James Greene (Barron) had a recurring role on "Parks and Recreation" but did not, in fact, appear in Star Trek prior to “Who Watches the Watchers.” On this rewatch I did not realize or remember that Warren was a woman until her death scene. Why does everyone in the cold open keep referring to the anthropologists as a “three-man” research team? Even in the 21st century we are more mindful about the use of gendered language. (Also, Warren’s death at exactly the right time is awfully convenient for the plot.) Concerning the “Dick’s Sporting Goods” issue, fans have complained that the Mintakans should not have such complex bows at their level of technology. Other fans have argued that the Mintakans’ high intelligence could well have allowed them to construct such a bow with the resources they have available. (See the “Incorrectly regarded as goofs” section of the episode’s IMDb page.) In my opinion, “Who Watches the Watchers” is the best TNG episode the Target Audience has yet seen but is not one of the top six episodes of Season 3.

Anthony Bernacchi

@Nolan Minor correction: three god-like beings: Q, Nagilum and Kevin.

Anthony Bernacchi

@Steven Johnson Having been raised Catholic and now being extremely uncertain in my faith, I feel I must point out that the Bible never once states that one human being owning another is inherently wrong, and in fact provides guidelines for the practice of slavery. I would, in fact, acknowledge this as one of the strongest possible arguments that both Judaism and Christianity are false religions. Christian abolitionists may have felt that Christ's teachings implied slavery's immorality, but many devout Christians saw no reason to believe there was anything wrong with slavery.

Anthony Bernacchi

Ditto.

Anthony Bernacchi

Picard's comments in "Where Silence Has Lease" do not imply a belief in a god or a religion, only a somewhat vaguely defined spirituality.

Anthony Bernacchi

This is good info, thank you. What is so odd is the timecode is sourced from the episode footage, so even though the timecode matches P+ the episode itself is different.

Josh (Target Audience)

It seems like just beaming Troi (Or Palmer for that matter)out would not only have been effective, but also limit most of the cultural contamination. But it would have been a pretty short episode. I guess the moral is that understanding is better than superstition and ignorance.

Philbot

I just went back and rewatched the reaction, I clicked start on Paramount Plus exactly the same time as the timer started and I also did a timer on my phone. The timers all stayed in sync the whole time but the on screen previews and the blur were out of sync. The P+ version always starts about a second earlier than the Bluray version you guys have so I usually wait a second before starting, but this time I started both exactly the same time. At the start of the timer the P+ version is about 1 second ahead of the on screen preview. By the time of the on screen preview at 13:20 it is perfectly in sync. Around the 30 minute mark P+ is a second behind. By the end of the video P+ is about 1.5 seconds behind. I think its just something different between P+ and the Bluray. It's only about 2 seconds difference overall so it's not a big deal.

Doug

That’s why I asked if it was the timecode or blurred episode/sync moments that are off. The episode starts 33 seconds into this video. When we stop the episode the episode timecode is at 44:30 and the video is at 45:03. A 33 second difference.

Josh (Target Audience)

Me too. The timer was off by a few seconds. I had to stop both and resync a few times

JGoss

That's pretty much what my thoughts are, too.

KatWithAttitude

Also enjoy seeing Kathryn Leigh Scott. And you're right about Troi looking like Tyne Daly in this episode. I had not made that connection until now.

Collin Freeman

I forgot about the scene where Riker admires the idea of Mintakan wives pimping out their husbands. I think he's the only character who would react that way.

Joe Concepts

Me too. That little rant he has about religion is literally one of my favorite Picard moments in TNG.

Matt F

Roddenberry was an atheist, so this episode fits perfectly with his worldview and therefore makes for a classic Trek episode. I also happen to agree 100% with what Picard said about religion lol.

Matt F

I feel your guys' pain, rendering issues can be subtle and evil. But yeah, I've noticed in the last couple of episodes that my video keeps falling behind by a second or two, when the audio clips come up.

Charles D.

They never denigrate religion or trek. This society has had a dark past like we did with religion they moved past it peacefully and the religious zealot showed how easy it is to move back to it. Picard did not want to see them back to that

Scarpad’s Domain

O Brien was dining a movie in the beginning of the 3rd season

Scarpad’s Domain

With the third year Stewart definitely stepped up his performance

Scarpad’s Domain

Could it be that your editing software is speeding up the video a bit somehow? Like, somehow it ends up being 5% faster?

Doug

Another classic example of the serious jump in quality and surety of writing in season 3 as compared to what came before it. Loved your reactions and I am just as excited to watch the rest of the season with you two! One oddity I noticed in this video is that your sync seems loose somehow? With it completely synced up at the beginning of the episode, every 5-10 minutes or so when you included a video/audio clip, I found that my playback was slightly behind again so I had to pause your video for a few seconds to re-sync. Not a problem really, but this is the first time I've experienced it. Strange!

John Deadcorn

I really liked this episode and the issues it presents

Scarpad’s Domain

he seems quite trigger happy imagine if he was around with the weapons we have today. also combine that he's hardcore religious

Narnman

I love when Troi and Riker walk down the hill and the camera lingers on the Vazquez Rocks as they walk out of frame. ❤️

T’Pynyn of Vulcan

On the religious side, people seem to completely miss a massive distinction. Picard makes no judgement value of any kind on the societies naturally evolved belief system. Zero. None. For example, if they still believed in the overseer when this occurred. He likely would have no issue with them putting what they witness and applying it to their current belief system, He is utterly upset about reverting a society who has moved past those belief systems, in their own words "countless generations ago". These are not current beliefs. They themselves had come to consider them supernatural beliefs and superstition. This is a society that no longer believed weather events were due to the their or a divine beings actions. Or that the movements of stars represent aspects of their life. This would put their understand of the nature of the environment far past the Bronze Age of our world (in comparison to where they classify them based on the tools they use). In fact the beliefs systems would be significantly further evolved, Picard is pissed that their actions, are causing a culture to regress hundreds if not thousands of years ago in beliefs, massively impacting a culture that has moved towards more rational understanding of their world around them. Then the next part when he told he should play into the role of their new god, creating in full cloth a religion not determined by their long ago abandoned beliefs, but one fully created by someone who is in no way part of their own culture. Picard's entire arguments are couched in how they Mintakans have grown to see the world around them. He starts from the point of their own development. How would a long ago ancestor perceived them today. The fact the culture even understands that samples found in caves represent themselves from an earlier time, is pretty solid advancement for being in the Bronze Age. This isn't an attack or Picard judging a cultures religious beliefs system.

Mark Wood

True.

Monty Crawford

It's seriously not that big an issue, just aggravating.

Monty Crawford

You feel like Guy is the plucky comic relief?

Philbot

Does it matter? Romulans were once Vulcan before the Schizm.

Philbot

I live for new posts! 😆

Philbot

Mmm strawberry syrup!

Philbot

Every time she says father! I go Dad! In a Bobby voice. 😂

Philbot

Q is a proven god like entity, but Picard is not about to worship him! But I’ve could provide proof in an existence beyond our own human consciousness.

Philbot

Philbot, what we're really discussing is Picard's statement in the episode that the abandonment of belief in the supernatural is an "achievement."

Darin Wagner

I don’t think that it's patently anti religious to say “Don’t worship me because I’m obviously not the way!” If the entire society wants to go off and become unitarians fine, but don’t kill for the church of Picard.

Philbot

Oji is the voice artist of Bobby Hill (Pamela Adlon) I think all 3 of her daughters are actors now… Everytime I hear her go Father! I go Dad! In a Bobby Hill voice. 😆

Philbot

Dammit Bobby!!!

Rob Galloway

Timecode, blurred image, or both?

Josh (Target Audience)

Well actually this is called agnosticism.

Sam Langanke

A bunch of people have brought it up. Josh said he'll try something to hopefully fix next time

James Bottas

I’m watching season 3 on Paramount Plus in the UK the video is very slightly speeded up. This may be happening due to a format conversion from NTSC to PAL, which is done automatically by most TVs or more likely by the streaming service. I don’t know about the blu rays. I suspect that just uploading to YouTube and converting formats on the way might account for the differences people are noticing. I’m not an expert by any means but the NTSC to PAL conversion was an issue when the show was first broadcast from season 3. The conversion methods used seemed to speed up or slow down playback, and people complained.

Paul Rymer

Man, another banger! So cool! And watching you two, cmon... Glorious!!!

Phluke Skywalker

I don't know if it's on my end or what, but this episode and last episode I have had to constantly resync with the reaction video. It's like the episode in the reaction is playing slightly faster than my version (Paramount+). After a just a few minutes my version ends up a second or two behind even when I sync perfectly.

Doug

I think is a great reading of the scene and what might be going through Picard’s mind.

PIG

They could play poker /s

Josh (Target Audience)

I knew the comments section on this one would get a bit spicy. This episode tends to be something of a rallying cry for Trek's atheist audience, and I don't begrudge their reading of the episode. I more have a problem the gatekeeper types that point to it as evidence that "Trek isn't for religious people", or like Marina Sirtis who has said "you can't be a conservative and a trekkie". Both statements are ridiculous IMO, and factually untrue. The way I see it, no 1 episode can define the franchise or even a character like Picard, as you have a whole team or writers all putting their own spin on things. You're going to get different perspectives. On top of that, the viewers will all have their own perspectives as well. Given I just watched the Is There in Truth No Beauty reaction, it goes back to the vulcan idea of infinite diversity in infinite combinations. There are so many ways to interpret Trek. So many different lessons to pull depending on one's perspective. Is the episode anti religion? Yeah, I'd say at least to an extent that's what they were going for. But as far at the particular scenario is concerned, I would have done the same as Picard. One can read his "horrifying" to mean the very thought of the mintakans going back to religion, but then the scenario of inquisitions and wars Barron described WAS horrific and must be avoided. Especially since that wasn't the path they were on before the interference. There's a rather naive belief however that religion is the root of all war and conflict, when it's estimated religious causes were only associated with about 7% of recorded wars, and 2% of deaths from all wars. To say nothing of communism, a secular philosophy, killing 100-150 million people in the last century. Take away religion and we're 93-98% as shitty. And as Steven Johnson pointed out, there are many pillars of modern civilization that find their root in religion, so there's a good argument that the good outweighs the bad. Ultimately all faith must be personal faith. As long as we all start from the understanding that everyone is free to believe or not believe in whatever they choose, free from force or coercion, then what people believe won't hurt anyone. What I read of Picard in this episode is not so much that he has some personal philosophical agenda driving his actions against religion in general. He is, as he rightly should be, horrified at the prospect of being seen as a god, when he knows he's just a man. Picard is a highly principled man, who values truth above almost anything else. Posing as a god when he knows he's mortal would be an affront to everything he stands for. That's best exemplified when Nuria says "you do not wish it?" and he replies "I do not deserve it". On top of that, he sees the potential in the mintakans, and the last thing they need is fear of him and what he might do as an "overseer" sparking a war. So he found a better way to get them back on the path they had already set for themselves. Finally, we see one of starfleet's "duck blind" missions. They always struck me as rather careless. We already saw a few episodes ago that starfleet can build nano machines. Seems to me it would be childs play for them to build drones in the form of local birds and insects. They could have a ship in orbit, perhaps disguised as an asteroid if the locals are at a point of having telescopes, and simply beam down these drones and fly them around with the locals none the wiser. They could literally be a fly on the wall. That would make so much more sense than risking exposure to the locals. Anyway, great episode, and a great showcase for Patrick Stewart

Timothy Nikiforovs

Also, we can't really have a Prime Directive episode where it goes the way it's supposed to, because, what would the episode be about then?

Nolan

Ray Wise stole the show in Twin Peaks

Collin Freeman

I don't think Troi and Riker just simply dressed up as Mintakans, but they had cosmetic surgery done to look like them too. Which in the future is a VERY outpatient procedure. As for Picard's observation room speech, I don't think it was necessarily anti-religious, just anti-regression. We're told the Mintakans are a rational people who long ago left behind mythological beliefs. What he was asked to do was to reverse the societal progress they had made. And for an explorer, scientific, academic man for whom the pursuit of knowledge is of vital importance, THAT is what angered him, sending them BACK to a way of thinking they had evolved beyond. He recognizes religion as a societal coping method, a step in progress, and a multi-faceted issue that certain species have their own unique relationship with. In Star Trek some societies still retain religious aspects, some move on, some are built around their beliefs and mythologies. Some also exist without religion. He seems to understand and respect all of these as a part of a developing society. And heck, at this point he's met, what , TWO god-like beings with others documented in Starfleet history. It's not like he's got no understanding of what religion is or how it or Faith works, the merits and the drawbacks. But he will not REVERSE the status of that relationship a society has, especially when it could get so out of hand,, especially in HIS name. That is where I believe his anger is born from. A nice little uncommented on wrinkle is PICARDS almost religious adherence to the Prime Directive. Liko offers up his life for his belief in Picard to bring his wife back to him, and in the same scene, Picard offers up his life to prove the Prime Directive's relevance. I dunno what that juxtaposition is saying, exactly, but I like that it's there.

Nolan

@Steven no one is forgetting these. But are you saying those are proofs that there's a god? What about just evidence that humankind has an inherent sense of "good" and "bad" as a result of evolutionary processes?

James Bottas

Yeah, like Amazon Netflix also goes right back in.

Dion James Pitman

It also depends on who was writing the episode. Different writers project different ideas onto the characters. This is probably the most anti religious Picard ever got. At the same time though it all depends on how the individual viewer interprets the episode.

Timothy Nikiforovs

Ah, got to love how this episode brings out all the best straw-men arguments against religion and God! Those of us with authentic religious belief don't believe in "pleasing a sky being" any more than you do. God, in any rational sense, is not a "sky being" or a "flying spaghetti monster" -- He is literally the creator of all existence, the unmoved mover. Aristotle, no flighty sentimentalist, argues, "that there must be an immortal, unchanging being, ultimately responsible for all wholeness and orderliness in the sensible world." With regard to this episode of TNG, I will agree that the writing in the observation lounge does lean a bit much into condemning all supernatural belief as irrational and backwards, which I wholly reject and can very rationally argue against. God, as Logos, as the ultimate creator of existence, exists OUTSIDE of the natural universe -- hence the term "supernatural." What's funny here is that, as a deeply religious person, I actually quite like this episode (that tiny bit of dialogue aside) and completely AGREE with the broader theme of the episode: that FALSE WORSHIP of a wholly material being -- i.e. one that exists WITHIN the natural universe -- is extremely dangerous and must be avoided. This episode paints a fabulous portrait of the dangers of FALSE religion. Not all religions are good, or simple personal preference. Religion must be rightly ordered and rightly reasoned to be good and just.

Lovok

A punctured and collapsed lung isn't that much fun either ;)

Andreas Schmitt

I was never sure how religion took a sharp left turn between TOS (where it was fairly common) to being treated as anti-civilized here. I guess it's just another character aspect of Picard rather than a belief that permeates the entire Federation.

Nerd's Gold

@jovet indeed. People forget the western world is built on the Judeo-Christian ethic, that it was the basis for the justification of the anti-slavery campaign great Britain undertook for nearly 100 years, that it was the influence and funding of The Church that lead to the Academic Revolution in Western Europe and the United States. Magna Carta, English Common Law, The Constitution... When people read the history of religion and read it only in the negative they are discounting massive pillars of modern civilization that were effectively built by it. I suppose it's easier that way, for some. One of the single hardest things for all mankind is to understand its own history without a pointed view.

Steven Johnson

My opinion, in Worf's voice... "Good score ...... nice locations"

JGoss

Its not a huge deal guys. Its not ruining my enjoyment of you guys or the episodes. Maybe I’m a slow poke and cant keep up with how good the show is lol. Keeping sound on for a few more seconds would allow for re-syncing. Just a thought.

Chris S.

Top tier TNG episode. It has a bit of everything. Action and suspense, ethical dilemma, great Picard speeches and scenes. Fantastic.

Clyde Frog

Yeah but my comment wasn't that serious. 🤦

Jovet

I think it depends on the source. I'm going through your TOS reactions, and I guess you watch on Paramount+, while I watch on Amazon. After the title sequence or the fade out for commercial breaks I need to pause my playback for about 2 seconds because P+ has a 2 or so second delay while Amazon goes right back in. Unless we're all watching the same source, it's just how it is. As long as the blur is there syncing is not a problem. I just look for scene changes, and if one happens first, I pause and unpause quick.

Timothy Nikiforovs

Gonna try something different tomorrow for the next two eps and if that doesn’t work then we have exhausted all options

Josh (Target Audience)

I don't know whats going on either 😂 but it is super noticable. I think its yours running fast because I've been resyncing by pausing mine for 1.5 seconds or so every few mins

James Bottas

Ya, I have trouble keeping in sync as well. I use paramount plus also. I have to carefully pause during commercials but the synch still seems to drift by a couple of seconds further into the stream. I don't think it's the guys fault, I think the streaming is half a second faster or slower than blue ray players.

Monty Crawford

I agree with that.

Collin Freeman

Democracy may have faults, but it works ;) Your car can have faults, but still work at least better than the alternatives. I mean, this can get so murky... but I think you're saying faith but meaning trust. I'm no doctor, but I would trust a doctor because they were schooled for it for many years and they have experience practicing. But I wouldn't just "have faith" that some random person on the street is a doctor and let them operate on me. As for keeping people in ignorance, yeah thats one of the biggest problems, right? People stop seeking answers when they have faith they've already got them

James Bottas

Nah, not at all. I've been onboard with Trek since the 1970s.

Tom Occhipinti

I don’t get how this makes sense. If you didn’t resync would we finish the show several minutes before you? 45 minutes is 45 minutes I’m so confused 😭😭

Josh (Target Audience)

I've also noted the sync is drifting with S3 (compared to the blurays) where with S2 it didn't.

Adam Zey

I'm not really a huge fan of this episode either...even though I basically agree with it's take on religion.

Greg Quinn

Something is definitely different because I'm watching the same blu-rays the guys are.. Up to this point I've been able to sync at the beginning and keep perfect sync the whole runtime. Ever since s3 started I can sync perfectly and in under 2 min I'll have full second 1.5-2 second misalignment

James Bottas

We've already established in the Nagilum episode that Picard keeps an open mind as to possibly a force that organizes the universe and an afterlife, but I definitely think he was most horrified and angry at the idea of a a religion that centers around HIM.

JD Nevesytrof

@TA. absolutely, some good gets accomplished in the name of religion and for many it simply provides comfort by trying to answer the unknowable.

James Bottas

Yeah, I've noticed since season 3 started, my Paramount+ is for some reason drifting off sync on a slow but constant basis and I don't quite know why. The audio after the commercial breaks really help.

JD Nevesytrof

He's also great in Good Night and Good Luck.

JD Nevesytrof

@James Bottas And there is plenty of evidence that democracy doesn't work. There is much more evidence that ignorance ALWAYS holds people back. Faith is not always believing without evidence. You just may not hold in regard "evidence" that another person personally experiences or holds. Especially if that person is long dead. Edit: Faith can also be belief with limited understanding.

Jovet

They can't exactly stay quiet the whole time. That would be nuts. It is a reaction video. I meant that they got really quiet when Picard was giving the Enterprise tour and especially during the dialogue in the lounge.

Strife

Straight out of that one great Greek tragedy... f/k/a Compton

Jovet

I agree and I think that for Picard it is also a matter of infringing upon the beliefs of others. If these people had beliefs in gods before they got there he wouldn't have gone on a tirade against that. He is always exceptionally respectful of everyone around him who has spiritual beliefs. He never downplays them at all. We see him do this consistently. As a scientist and explorer he didn't want to ruin their enlightenment era and be the cause of any potential holy wars.

Strife

They were pretty chatty, too, though.

Jovet

Human religion is more complicated than just people lying to each other.

Jovet

No, he was upholding the Prime Directive in the same manner that he expected Dr. Palmer and everyone else to uphold it. With his life.

Jovet

...Like you're watching a reaction to the wrong show...?

Jovet

Peak Ray Wise is Swamp Thing (1982) ;D

James Bottas

@James Bottas I agree, Picard was appalled that Dr. Barron would even dream of regressing Mintakan culture back to the period of supernatural beliefs. "Supernatural" is a dangerous word, though, with ambiguous definitions. It *can* mean "god" or "god-like," except when it doesn't. To me, "supernatural" can't exist, because the very nature of the universe means all that happens has to occur naturally anyways; what we cannot explain rationally is simply just "supernatural." The whole point of the episode is to show a Bronze-age society that is trying to cope with understanding the world around it. The Enterprise's transporters may seem supernatural, but that's only from ignorance of the natural principles with which they work. Gods tend to exhibit supernatural powers, but that's because they're gods. Ghosts would, today, be considered supernatural, but they're not gods.

Jovet

This episode is on a lot of peoples' all-time favorites list. To me, while I like it, it really is a bit goofy and Ray Wise is far better an actor than the performance we see here as Liko. Then again it's a very good Picard performance and finally a fairly good Prime Directive dilemma.

JD Nevesytrof

I was wondering if I could ask a teensy weensy favor….I know because of Copyright you can’t show the picture, or hardly any sound. I was wondering if you could keep the sound on while we’re sincing with the episode for a bit longer. I find myself several times trying to sinc when the sound comes on, so I’m constantly adjusting. Can you extend the sound for an extra 10 seconds or so to help that? That would be awesome.

Chris S.

Faith is believing without evidence. There's plenty of evidence democracy works :)

James Bottas

I’m not religious, but would like to clarify that I think religion or faith on an individual level can very much be a good thing. The organization and enforcement of religion on others is the issue imo. My “faith” in the research of humans much smarter than me is no different than someone’s faith in a religious text. No one knows why we are here. Let people believe whatever they want. FREEDOM BABY 🇺🇸 🦅

Josh (Target Audience)

In my view Picard is not against a spiritual life or some beliefs. But he is very much against a kind of religion that revolves around a personified god and an organizational religion forming around that. And considering how much damage exactly that has done to us to this day (Gaza anyone?) I concur with him on that. Because it always works like is shown here. Believers start claiming they know what god wants, and then non-believers are made the targets and killed. This couldn't be any more relevant to current day events.

Andreas Schmitt

I think I understand why you'd read it that way, as a person of faith and a TNG fan. Personally, when I watch that observation lounge scene it doesn't seem to me that the fact that he's been mistaken for a god is his main concern.. I think all that writing would've been the same regardless of who got pegged a god.

James Bottas

You guys got quiet AF for a long time and that was a great and appropriate reaction

Strife

Ever since the first caveman figured out he could manipulate the rest of the group by claiming to speak with the one making the lightning, we've been paying for it

James Bottas

I've always seen this episode as a bit of an outlier. Sure there's plenty of episodes that challenge a particular religion or god figure but none besides this that challenge the whole concept of all religion. And just one season ago in "Where Silence Has Lease", when asked about the afterlife, Picard answered "I believe that our existence must be more than any of these philosophies. That what we are goes beyond... practical measuring systems. And that our existence is part of a reality beyond what we understand as reality."

Dan Halstead

People have faith in democracy, does that make democracy a religion???

Charlie

On the flipside he was also quite clear previously that he respect the beliefs of others. For Picard, in this case, it was specifically that he was going to be the god figure in a new religion leading to massive chaos and destruction. Not beliefs unto themselves, and I will maintain that position to my dying day. I think Picard was more outraged and shocked to find himself in that position and let his temper get the better of him momentarily. Picard himself, previously, has also made allusions to some kind of a belief system. Even it was as vague as a universal spiritualist humanism. The "we're made of star stuff" type. (used to be me.)

Steven Johnson

Atheism is not a religion and that was passionate empathy for people in danger of being snared by religious thought

James Bottas

I always thoroughly enjoy this episode. Religion is still one of the last holdovers from our own dark ages, which ironically was also the cause. People still say and do ridiculous things in the name of pleasing a sky being.

Brian Moore

"I used to be an God, until I took an arrow to the chest."

Steven Johnson

I don't know about that. He zeroed in quite clearly on the "supernatural"

James Bottas

Jonathan Llyr

I'm with Picard as far as religion and faith are concerned. Horrifying indeed. Strong episode

James Bottas

They're a peaceful people.

Jovet

But did you make THE PICARD happy today?

Jovet

Yes, Liko surely would mortally wounded Captain Picard if Oji hadn't shoved him when she did. Faith is a glorious, wicked creature.

Jovet

With a last name like Monk, how do you THINK I feel about this episode? 😀

Tom Occhipinti

46:40 It wasn't religion that Picard was trying to defend the Mintakans against. It was incohesive, irrational thinking... like the stuff that Liko was just pulling out of his ass. He was writing the book "How to Keep The Picard Happy in Twelve Easy Steps" as we watched, and all of it was his imagination pushed by circumstances and irrational conclusions.

Jovet

I always wondered just how they determined that they were following a Vulcan parallel evolution and not Romulan...

Monty Crawford

Yep, Vasquez Rocks Natural Area Park. It was also where the location shots from the TOS episodes “Shore Leave”, “Arena”, “The Alternative Factor”, and “Friday's Child” were filmed. So were some of the Vulcan scenes from “ST IV: The Voyage Home”. Whether or not the location shows up again later I won't say because of, you know, spoilers. Lots of other TV shows and movies were also filmed at Vasquez, too many to mention here. And another fun fact from Memory Alpha: “The cast and crew spent two days shooting in 100°F (38°C) heat. Due to the presence of local snakes, scorpions and bees, no attractants such as deodorant or perfume could be used.” Lovely.

KatWithAttitude

I dunno, i think later episodes challenge that statement.

Monty Crawford

Picard has an awful lot of faith in it for it to not be a religion.

Darin Wagner

"That boy just ain't right" :D

Kosh Naranek

"Hmmm, so what am I going to do this Sunday af- OHMYGOD Target Audience JUST POSTED!" That's almost actually how it went a moment ago lol

PIG

Jumping from my Sunday service stream to this, I have to admit, is a little ironic.

Steven Johnson

It seemed to me that Leecon was still considering if he should shoot Picard, but his daughter panicking and shoving him made him accidentally release the arrow.

Mike Rogers

ah, Star Trek and religion! just you wait...

Ee'char

15:25 They aren't Vulcans. They're Vulcan-like, but this isn't the planet Vulcan. And, perhaps they have orange blood! Though I am not sure how. I did always wonder if they were supposed to think Picard's red blood was weird, or even if they recognized it as blood.

Jovet

Thank you! I have been trying to place that voice for years!

Glenn Johnson Barnes

This has always been one of my favorite season 3 episodes. Kathryn Leigh Scott is terrific, and her scenes with Patrick Stewart work well. Also, Troi disguised as a Mintakan looks a lot like Tyne Daly 😀

Glenn Johnson Barnes

4:12 Yeah she's in Starfleet. But she's a bit more casual because of her job, to help people feel more comfortable in private.

Jovet

2:50 Wow, you sure picked up and recognized THAT quickly... !

Jovet

He believed in himself!! THE PICARD!!!

Jovet

Oji is played by Pamela Adlon who is Bobby on King Of The Hill.

Phil Ken Sebben

A Prime Directive episode that firmly established Picard's lack of religious faith. I take that back, he DID have a religious faith... secular humanism.

Darin Wagner