PATRON TAKES - Star Trek TNG S2E15
Added 2024-03-04 00:41:54 +0000 UTCComment on this post your ‘takes’ on this episode and we will read a few in our discussion!
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- A brief review (2-3 sentences) of why you like/dislike the episode
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We are watching this episode Monday, so we won’t be reading the comments on this until then. If you have questions shoot us a message!
Comments
Kind of a weird episode. I feel like it's reaching for something like 'The Measure of a Man'; it wants to be a philosophical episode about a deep moral conundrum. But it doesn't get there, in part because the Prime Directive as presented here is just not that well thought out. I do, however, appreciate the big discussion scene in Picard's quarters, when the crew is debating what to do.
Steven Linden
2024-03-07 04:43:57 +0000 UTCI think it is a good idea to have some safeguards against too much interventionism, but the execution of that idea is... debateble. Later on it seems that the prime directive consists of guidelines, not fixed rules. It may be a retcon, but it makes a lot more sense than the almost religious "let's never ever help people that have no warp drive because fate or something" version.
Tim b
2024-03-06 18:32:16 +0000 UTCI do not like this episode because of the prime directive issue. It is this episode that they will treat the prime directive, moving forward with more consistency that being that they do not interfere in the internal politics of another culture, and most importantly, especially to this episode, do not involve themselves with pre-warp civilizations and despicably even if they’re about to be completely wiped out. The arguments presented in this episode for why they should follow. The prime directive are really bad Rikers what about a cosmic plan makes no sense since even if there is one, you have no idea what it is so you have no choice but to do what you would normally do anyways and Picards argument has a slippery slope mentality because he argues that what if it’s something different like a big war and everyone looks down as if he’s right when the really the answer is you go on a case by case basis and you stop and think is interference beneficial in this specific circumstance or would do more harm than good which makes this instance all the more morally objectionable, considering that we’re dealing with an entire species and their civilization being completely wiped out, and our heroes can help them without even them noticing and you still have Picard acting like this violates the prime directive. Also, where in the world does Rikers cosmic plan argument come from? Unfortunately, I suspect it comes from the idea of that some of the writers have that extinction is part of evolution and that interfering is going against nature despite the fact that we go against nature all the time, such as when a doctor cures a disease and also acts as if evolution has some sort of intended predestined path that it must follow. For crying out loud I don’t even believe in evolution and I don’t know let’s still get why that is not part of the theory.
Leighton Cressman
2024-03-06 14:25:16 +0000 UTCAnother episode that shows the endless possibilities of the Holodeck, and another episode where the Prime Directive is thrown out the window.
A Surprisingly Moist Fart
2024-03-05 23:48:59 +0000 UTCThe Prime Directive be like Rodney Dangerfield. No respect.
D
2024-03-05 02:58:59 +0000 UTCThis is another of Picards famous speeches.
Monty Crawford
2024-03-05 02:14:29 +0000 UTCAll in all...I predict you guys will like this episode but not love it and list it as "better than half" the episodes you've seen so far.
Greg Quinn
2024-03-04 21:37:46 +0000 UTCAlso shows that she knows how to debate in a very cutting way...when she basically calls Worf a coward. Lol
Greg Quinn
2024-03-04 21:36:23 +0000 UTCThey did great...they made her look very alien and not like a "cute" kid...but you still felt extremely sorry for her.
Greg Quinn
2024-03-04 21:35:29 +0000 UTCI agree with James. I think Data knew very well that he shouldn't be talking to her but he did anyhow because he "felt" it was terrible.
Greg Quinn
2024-03-04 21:33:30 +0000 UTCAlso a sadly overlooked sitcom called "The Norm Show" featuring Norm MacDonald.
Timothy Hennon
2024-03-04 20:39:57 +0000 UTCData does know these things. But it's meant to show more of his emerging humanity that he reacts to the little girl being in trouble... despite knowing the rules he "does the right thing"
James Bottas
2024-03-04 18:37:59 +0000 UTCSteve Shives is a Youtuber who makes Star Trek content. Episode reviews, essays on various Trek topics, that kind of thing
James Bottas
2024-03-04 18:35:18 +0000 UTCSo Picard likes horses and we get to see the holodeck again. Wesley is put in charge and Data says screw the prime directive to save a little girls life. Overall I hadn’t watched this episode since it originally aired when I was 5 and I don’t think I will again.
Eric Bundy
2024-03-04 17:15:32 +0000 UTCInteresting discussion of the Prime Directive in this one. Odd though that Data doesn't already know all this and the complications he's introducing by communicating with Sarjenka. Steve Shive did a video making a compelling case that this should've been a Wesley episode and I kind of agree.
Alexander McKechnie
2024-03-04 17:13:35 +0000 UTCDue to budget overruns the holodeck scene is the first time they could afford to film on location since the first season episode “Justice” - episode 8.
Jon1701
2024-03-04 16:34:23 +0000 UTCYou guys should pull up a bio and pics of Nikki Cox (Sarjenka) as an adult. She turned out pretty well after this job.
Collin Freeman
2024-03-04 15:50:15 +0000 UTC"Pen Pals” or “WWPD?” Hey, it’s!: Nikki Cox played Sarjenka. She’s best known for appearing in “Unhappily Ever After" and “Las Vegas”
Adam Reid
2024-03-04 15:45:25 +0000 UTCFun Fact: Captain Picard actually wanted to fire his android second officer for bringing the girl on-board the ship, but was forced to keep him around due to 24th century Data retention laws. I'll see myself out.
Regan
2024-03-04 13:07:41 +0000 UTCI have always liked the way O’Brien fell asleep in the corner for 30 seconds or so.
Thicketdweller
2024-03-04 12:46:12 +0000 UTCData's final F.U. to the prime directive, leaving an object of extra terrestrial origin on the planet
SinocTheHodgeheg
2024-03-04 11:19:52 +0000 UTCST and the Prime Directive was always plot dependent. I mean, in “Justice” they make it the big dilemma, never mind they sent the crew to a pre-warp society, in uniform, and let them screw the natives lol
Glenn Johnson Barnes
2024-03-04 09:14:13 +0000 UTCIt's those long fingers that get me....
Jovet
2024-03-04 08:38:32 +0000 UTC"just imagine this species later turns out to become the Klingons or worse down the line" Or imagine they turn out to be one of the most enlighten species of the galaxy ushering in an era of peace and prosperity for everyone. Saying "maybe doing this will have a bad result in a few generations" is not a valid argument, you can use that to justify all kinds of immoral or evil acts. I could watch you die and not help by telling myself that maybe I'm saving the 22nd century from an evil tyrant that would have killed have the population on earth. Does that make it okay?
Phillip Grischa
2024-03-04 07:47:09 +0000 UTCRiker would probably not help a person bleeding to death because how does he know one of the person's descendants won't become space Hitler if he survives? The interpretation of the prime directive in this episode is inhumane and evil. Non-interference means not getting involved with a culture because you think you know better, it does not mean watching them die when you could save them by pressing a few buttons without them ever knowing.
Phillip Grischa
2024-03-04 07:07:04 +0000 UTCThey always kinda creeped me out too, for sure.
Lady Beyond The Wall
2024-03-04 06:38:45 +0000 UTCOh yeah, "your friend" would have worked! Didn't even think of that one. "That" does come off as a little rude. 😂
Lady Beyond The Wall
2024-03-04 06:36:58 +0000 UTCLittle did anyone on that planet know, if some little girl didn't transmit a message into space at exactly the right time, they'd all be dead.
JGoss
2024-03-04 05:00:12 +0000 UTCI'm rewatching it now. He was present and "napping" when Riker beamed Data down, and Riker did mention her name. Then when Riker was called away O'Brien "woke up" and handled the beam up. He could have called her "your friend" instead.
KatWithAttitude
2024-03-04 03:46:37 +0000 UTCI've always preferred Kirk's interpretation of the Prime Directive over Picard's, even though Picard's is probably the one intended by Star Fleet in the first place. Kirk probably says it best in Return of the Archons when Spock questions him about interfering in the people's way of life by destroying Landru... SPOCK: Captain, our Prime Directive of non-interference. KIRK: That refers to a living, growing culture. Do you think this one is? Meaning, any culture that is being prevented from developing for any reason (or already being interfered with) is exempt from the Prime Directive.
Nerd's Gold
2024-03-04 03:39:46 +0000 UTCThe best thing about this episode is that it shows the crew frustrated by, debating and trying to rationalize loopholes in the Prime Directive, just like an internet comment section.
James Bottas
2024-03-04 03:16:34 +0000 UTCMy vote for MVP this ep goes to director Winrich Kolbe.
bab
2024-03-04 03:15:32 +0000 UTCBottom line is this: when you see a gazelle about to be eaten by lions, you don't rescue the gazelle (or teach it how to use machine guns) because you'd be interfering with the lion's way of life and throwing who knows how many evolutionary paths off track. It's sad for the gazelle, but that's life. However... if the situation is that gazelles as a species are about to go extinct, then yes you step in and conserve them. I hope this has been helpful
James Bottas
2024-03-04 03:15:21 +0000 UTCSarjenka’s fingers slightly creep me out. That’s all I have for this one.
Paul Rymer
2024-03-04 03:08:56 +0000 UTCI can't remember as I haven't rewatched it in a while, but did he know Sarjenka's name at that point? I can't remember if O'Brien was present for the conversations about her. If not, while it sounds kind of rude, the only other thing to say would be "the alien" or "that alien" or.. it, I guess? If he did know her name then yeah, definitely would come off rude, lol. I guess he could have just assumed she was a her though. 🤷🏻♀️
Lady Beyond The Wall
2024-03-04 02:59:49 +0000 UTCDr. Pulaski, telling it like it is in this one.
Just another Red Shirt
2024-03-04 02:44:58 +0000 UTCCheck it out! The holodeck is being used by Picard for hours on end without breaking down! Again, the contradictory attitude toward the Prime Directive shows up here. Picard is absolutely right, according to their own rules, they should not be contacting this race that doesn’t know aliens exist…but as soon as he hears the girl plead for help, he rushes the Enterprise to save the planet. Follow the rule, or don’t talk about it on your TV show.
tyranusfan
2024-03-04 02:39:55 +0000 UTCThe “cosmic plan” discussion is one of the main examples I had in mind when I mentioned in the past that TNG is like a version of the dinner party scene in “Is There In Truth No Beauty?” that is seven seasons long. This scene epitomizes everything TNG is and everything you always hoped it would be.
Anthony Bernacchi
2024-03-04 02:37:00 +0000 UTCSarjenka was awesome! I was really blown away by her make-up at the time and I'm glad to see that it still holds up today. Very underrated episode in my opinion given not only the discussion of the prime directive but Wesley finally being treated like a serious character.
Nick Sauer
2024-03-04 02:35:26 +0000 UTCHey.. nobody said it was perfect. Not even Picard.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-03-04 02:01:50 +0000 UTCI am being fair. The dogmatic take on the PD in this era sucks. It's a terrible way to go about things. A Private Little War is a very different situation. Again, this highlights the problem. Picard's "What about a war?" line, as if that was a gotcha... It's not a gotcha. You can't treat all situations as the same. Private Little War was staged in the middle of the Federation-Klingon cold war where both sides were constantly trying to get strategic and tactical advantages in "lesser developed" star systems. We see this numerous times throughout TOS. That adds a whole other layer of moral dilemma to that particular situation. That's why I cited Hollow, not Little War. In Hollow, effectively, a natural disaster is going to wipe out an entire species. There's a choice to be made: Help or don't. The difference is that in TOS, the PD dilemma is met with more of a shrug because the moral argument is basically self evident. The conflict is else where. In TNG they invert it. and it makes the Federation look really dogmatic in a way that a genuinely progressive society shouldn't be. It should be self evident to the people of the 24th Century that you can't apply a rule like the Prime Directive as a blanket... and yet, that's how it's framed, that this is the exception, not the rule.
Steven Johnson
2024-03-04 02:00:43 +0000 UTCFor all I know this random child might become a tyrant some day. Guess I'd better let her burn to death in volcanic ash. I'd hate to save innocent people who might hypothetically do evil things somewhere down the line.
Jeff Cornell
2024-03-04 01:59:55 +0000 UTCFor me this is the episode that finally cements Pulaski as someone who is part of the crew, and not treated as an outsider. She takes the ethical side of the prime directive argument in the scene in Picard’s quarters. The moment Data plays Sarjenka’s voice for the rest of the crew, Pulaski’s reaction says it all: she’s falls into her seat and is almost in tears. They can’t turn their backs on this cry for help.
Column Meanie
2024-03-04 01:55:32 +0000 UTCThat whole "cosmic plan" argument was purest B.S. though...
JD Nevesytrof
2024-03-04 01:55:18 +0000 UTCThese days you end up on a database for messaging children like that.
Smear Campaign
2024-03-04 01:47:10 +0000 UTCHey, let's be fair. Picard does let Data help to quite the degree even before deciding to finally ignore the prime directive. Also.. neither Kirk nor Picard came up with the rule, so neither are to blame for it. They both believe in it and decided to uphold it or ignore it at different times. I wouldn't say that Kirk's decisions in "A private little war" were the greatest either.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-03-04 01:45:54 +0000 UTCAlways liked this one. Underrated score on IMDb, but finally some intellectual context for the Prime Directive. Can only the ‘height of hubris’ explain why this episode isn’t more widely praised? ;)
Andrew F.
2024-03-04 01:44:46 +0000 UTCWhen Data is about to take Sarjenka to the bridge, O'Brien says something like "And you're taking that?" I always thought that was kind of rude to refer her as a "that".
KatWithAttitude
2024-03-04 01:43:47 +0000 UTCWell to be fair... Picard doesn't let them die and comes to the same conclusion as Kirk. He just debated it first.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-03-04 01:41:44 +0000 UTCMelinda Snodgrass was the go to Data writer, just as D.C. Fontana was the go to Spock writer.
Glenn Johnson Barnes
2024-03-04 01:31:38 +0000 UTCYou guys finally get come definition of what the Prime Directive actually IS, as you were wondering it it would ever be defined.
Nolan
2024-03-04 01:27:07 +0000 UTCIt goes back to the old “twilight zone type” story, you save a mother and child’s lives during childbirth, and the child grows up to be Hitler. I get it even if I don’t agree with it at all.
Glenn Johnson Barnes
2024-03-04 01:24:06 +0000 UTCAn episode built around and remembered for a scene where characters sit around and debate philosophy, ethics and morality. And it was GOOD. I don't think this would be made today, execs would be too scared to.
Nolan
2024-03-04 01:22:32 +0000 UTCThis is a great, unsung episode of TNG that a lot of people probably don't remember because it's buried in the much malinged S2. However, that scene in Picard's quarters where they are discussing the ramifications of helping or not helping Data's friend is pure Trek at it's best, and one of the best scenes from the series, imo.
Michael Mannisto
2024-03-04 01:15:53 +0000 UTCPicard's pristine saddle!!
Jovet
2024-03-04 01:15:52 +0000 UTCYeah it's alright. Data pushing his captain's boundaries!
Jovet
2024-03-04 01:12:01 +0000 UTCQuestion: Is Pulaski's "You did a good thing, Data" her coming around full circle on him?
Jovet
2024-03-04 01:10:05 +0000 UTCWho knows how effective her memory wipe was?
Jovet
2024-03-04 01:09:34 +0000 UTC"The road to hell is paved with the best of intentions." That's why.
Jovet
2024-03-04 01:08:11 +0000 UTCGood Data and Prime Directive episode. Might not make any top episodes lists but I really enjoy this one personally.
Ca$hWednesday
2024-03-04 01:06:50 +0000 UTCAyyy, Melinda M. Snodgrass of The Measure of a Man fame is BACK! BACK AND BE......well, maybe not better than ever. This episode is kinda whatever. More Prime Directive stuff tho, that's always interesting
Elway Simpson
2024-03-04 00:59:29 +0000 UTCAnother overall middle-of-the road episode for me, elevated by certain scenes and performances, not the least of which are Patrick Stewart's and Brent Spiner's. The B-story was okay, also not great. I think you will finally come to like (at least a little) Dr. Pulaski in this episode.
Collin Freeman
2024-03-04 00:56:41 +0000 UTCAt the end, when Data leaves Sarjenka with the singing stone, she would have no memory of it so Data must have done it for sentiment. This tracks with Measure of a Man, where Data kept the hologram of Tasha for no particular reason other than sentiment. I just thought that was a nice detail.
Evan Guthrie
2024-03-04 00:56:00 +0000 UTCthis episode is funny when picard says oops
Narnman
2024-03-04 00:55:48 +0000 UTCWhile it is generally well acted and written episode in terms of the sobering a mature discussions had... I once again absolutely find the morality of the way the Prime Directive is applied as a zero-sum dogma to be abhorrent. "Yay, we let people die! Look how advanced we are!" Captain Kirk would never let an entire species die for no reason. See the Original Series episode "For The World is Hollow and I have Touched The Sky" for how the P.D. should be applied. I know they *try* but the point is it seems like the general rule of thumb in the 24th Century is very hard-line.
Steven Johnson
2024-03-04 00:53:50 +0000 UTCThe only scene I like in this episode is the one in Picard’s quarters where the crew discusses the Prime Directive and how rigid or flexible it should be. Aside from that is a pretty basic early TNG episode.
Gregory
2024-03-04 00:51:37 +0000 UTCIt comes from a very misguided point of view, sad to say. Generally, no, Starfleet shouldn't mess with civilizations that are developing... And the fact that its treated as a zero-sum game bothers me to no end. In TOS they handled this brilliantly in just a couple sentences in For The World Is Hollow and I Have Touched The Sky" Spock softly reminds Kirk that interfering and telling the people of their predicament would be a violation... and Kirk says something to the effect of "Yeah that's true, but that's better than total destruction." A directive should not be dogmatically applied, and sad to say writers in this era of Trek seemed to think that it SHOULD be.
Steven Johnson
2024-03-04 00:51:02 +0000 UTCLove the main story, even if it is slower paced. The B plot in this episode is annoying, though. It’s like the writer(s) needed to shoehorn in an answer to “with Beverly gone, who’s looking after Wesley?” Lots of good examples of the Riker maneuver, though.
Jess Thomas
2024-03-04 00:51:00 +0000 UTCI'm pretty sure you will debate whether the Prime Directive is kind of stupid on this one. Why let an entire species die. However... just imagine this species later turns out to become the Klingons or worse down the line... and it's your responsibility to unleash them on the galaxy instead of letting them die out. The point is you can never know, so the Prime Directive takes the route of non-interference at all costs. It can be debated whether that rule is the right one for sure, but it has its arguments for it.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-03-04 00:48:08 +0000 UTCI really enjoy this one because it accentuates how much of a child like character Data is. How it drives him to communicate and try to save Sarzencha. Nikki Cox is under all that makeup. She was one of the girls the T-1000 was talking to on the street in Terminator 2, grew up to be a bombshell.
Mike Rogers
2024-03-04 00:48:07 +0000 UTCPicard was furious when Data brought the girl to the bridge! I almost forgot that it takes him a little time to adjust to kids being around.
TalynStarburst
2024-03-04 00:46:13 +0000 UTCI've never cared much for this one. My ranking is “At Least It's Only 45ish Minutes” because it doesn't quite make it up to “Time Filler With Good Moments” status although it does have a few. And I will never figure out why Data left the Elanin singer stone with Sarjenka after her memory was modified. Unless she was given new memories she won't know what it is, how she got it, and it didn't even belong to Data. Maybe he replicated another one for her.
KatWithAttitude
2024-03-04 00:43:54 +0000 UTCI really don't understand the argument that the Prime Directive should apply to letting an entire race just die out. It doesn't make sense to make all this effort to seek out new life just to walk away and let it be exterminated. In my cynical opinion Starfleet created the Prime Directive just to slap it down on problems they don't want to deal with.
JD Nevesytrof
2024-03-04 00:42:45 +0000 UTC
