FULL DISCUSSION - Star Trek TNG S1E19 - Coming of Age
Added 2023-12-06 15:22:52 +0000 UTCAs we said in our reaction video to this episode (posted earlier today) the reactions and discussions will now be separate videos, and that applies to Patreon as well. Nothing different with the content itself, just separate videos.
Comments
Definitely one of the better season 1 eps, and Wesley eps overall. I agree the test for Wesley at the end would have been better if he had to make an actual choice between saving two injured people rather than just having that one idiot standing in the corner. Also, I don't think this is a spoiler, and maybe you already know, but there is in fact a Starfleet Academy show currently in development!
Michael Mannisto
2023-12-08 09:38:35 +0000 UTCAnd I just noticed: for the thumbnail of this video, you seem to have picked probably the one single frame from the episode in which the hallway-extension matte painting is almost convincing.
Jeff Cornell
2023-12-08 07:10:08 +0000 UTCJosh: "Guys, I hate to break it to you: I think you like the show". Quote of the year.
Jeff Cornell
2023-12-08 06:40:34 +0000 UTCI was thinking it was a test to see if he would try to save them or run and get help instead. It was a test to see if he had the metal to stay and take care of what needed to be done instead of finding a superior officer to handle it.
Mullinsky
2023-12-07 20:41:54 +0000 UTCAgree with all of that
Collin Freeman
2023-12-07 16:06:42 +0000 UTCThey always said they watch in order of release dates.
Sam Langanke
2023-12-07 16:05:03 +0000 UTCI agree overall that Riker comes off rather petty and immature in this episode. And he is a high ranking officer on the ship….but not in starfleet….he is just a commander….plenty of higher ranks and other ships out there
Derek Orr
2023-12-07 15:49:21 +0000 UTCThat must mean you see the season 1 finale in a bit of a different light now
Derek Orr
2023-12-07 15:46:58 +0000 UTCEarly TNG feels like The Motion Picture…later TNG feels more like Star Trek 2 and 3 and 4 The improvement in season 3 etc, is mostly the characters and actors just knowing each better and smoother dialogue and interactions…they are warmer overall and less cold. Some of these early episodes are kinda like Cheer before “everyone knew their name” there are less awkward pauses or stilted dialogue, Picard gets to give bigger better speeches, Riker becomes a more well rounded XO. Some of the other supporting characters will get a LOT of development and backstory. The plots become less Roddenberry cerebral sci fi (with his injections of sex stuff) and they become more mainstream conventional and appeal to a broader audience. And the world building becomes more conventional and becomes more clear that the federation is the federal govt or UN and starfleet is the navy in current 20th/21st century style….where some of these early episodes and lots of TOS have a feel thats more like a new empire expanding into the unknown frontier…more of old west vibe…where TNG becomes closer to feeling like our world…but in space.
Derek Orr
2023-12-07 15:44:05 +0000 UTCI think the choice was simply to save himself and the first guy OR try and keep talking to and take more time and try and save the other guy and they all “die”
Derek Orr
2023-12-07 15:26:38 +0000 UTCJames: you are spot on! Yes, that's exactly what I meant by that response post. Josh and Alex have a lot of "fun" yet to be revealed; here's hoping they figure out how to go about those overlapping series' - both DS9 within TNG, and when Voyager overlaps DS9. I presume they'll have the wisdom to "make it so,"
Rhett Coates
2023-12-07 13:12:09 +0000 UTCMicheal Vehar directed a lot of Babylon 5
Scarpad’s Domain
2023-12-07 05:32:12 +0000 UTCThat's one of the beauties of this channel, being able to vicariously relive that first time viewing through Alex and Josh who are first timers but also enthusiasts! :) yeah we'll have to see what they figure out for scheduling once the overlapping starts. I don't see 4 episodes a week happening.. 2 per week really feels like a sweet spot. but having time for life and not burning out have to be priorities
James Bottas
2023-12-07 05:27:03 +0000 UTCFirst off, I'm onboard with the separate video format. It makes sense why you're doing it. I just wanted to comment about the so-called hate for Season 1 by a lot of the fanbase. I think the album analogy that was made is a good way of describing it. Season 1 of TNG is like "Yellow Submarine" in a sea of mostly "Abbey Roads" (to use a Beatles example). Just the weakest entry in a mostly excellent discography.
Ca$hWednesday
2023-12-07 04:34:18 +0000 UTCMy only real concern, if it can be called that, is that Deep Space Nine begins about halfway through TNG, and Voyager begins about halfway through DS9. Will Josh and Alex take to viewing/posting reactions and discussions on TWO episodes of EACH series per week when they reach that far? Wow, 'talk about "franchise fatigue" (LOL).
Rhett Coates
2023-12-07 03:52:32 +0000 UTCThanks, James. I've been a fan since the FIRST RUN of TOS episode "Mudd's Women" - the big reveal/philosophy at the end was something my parents always said to me - and they, too, witnessed it that night (while we ate dinner) watching that story unfold. As a stage actor (also having been in various TV shoots and films), I'm also a writer - having been inspired by Star Trek: TOS. (I even wrote a ST: ENT season five story for Manny Coto, in 2005, but that show was cancelled before Manny got to read it.) Therefore, the enthusiasm JOSH AND ALEX are experiencing and sharing with the rest of us are, to me, like re-living my initial exposure to 'Trek. The above story is what made me a Trekkie, and the love which every ST character attempts to share and spread in everything they do.
Rhett Coates
2023-12-07 03:47:32 +0000 UTCSome infectious enthusiasm you got there. I like it
James Bottas
2023-12-07 03:42:22 +0000 UTCSo, you were waiting for an episode of TNG, as you stated, to "blow you away" with its content and a good story. Well, it's not just a good story: it was TWO of them, running in parallel. I, too, was taken (and this was from the first time I saw it years ago) by the CHARACTER development and pairing of various characters. You also noted the scene with Wesley and Worf on the holodeck: that was one. Josh: GET READY. I foresee you and Alex purchasing SEAT BELTS for your chairs......... that is NOT a joke. As the 7-year time-frame of TNG builds, there are surprises in store that will shock, amaze, inspire and awe you. REMEMBER ONE THING: The Original Series is the foundation for everything else you will see in every story for every spin-off, just as TAS was a continuation of TOS. TNG is a continuation of TOS/TAS, just as the others will be to TNG. Josh, Alex: go out and get seat belts. Y O U W I L L N E E D T H E M for many stories to come. And, soon. And that is the kind of fun still in store for Star Trek!
Rhett Coates
2023-12-07 03:41:13 +0000 UTCJosh and Alex will be very pleased to know that there is currently a "Star Trek: Starfleet Academy" series in development.
Miguel A. Moreta
2023-12-07 03:09:04 +0000 UTCOk Josh in case you didn't notice it. What I was referring to was at the 1 minute 50 and 51 second mark watch Riker's Neck as he either does a controlled Burp or maybe it was a hard Swallow...LOL It seems funny to me I never noticed this before as I'm pretty good at catching that kind of stuff. 😁🖖
Duane Chancey
2023-12-07 02:28:25 +0000 UTCThe first couple of stinkers, and the Wesley prominence, really paints memories of this season as worse than it was.
StonyD
2023-12-07 01:58:35 +0000 UTCYour comments about the splitting of the Kirk character into Picard and Riker is spot on. That was the intention for Star Trek: Phase II had it ever come about, with Kirk and Decker. Kirk would have been older at that point and been more the experienced, intellectual “old man" whereas Decker would have represented more of the physical/emotional aspects of our favorite captain from TOS.
Collin Freeman
2023-12-07 01:49:32 +0000 UTCAgreed. They actors are finally finding the characters that will carry us through the rest of the series. Or perhaps it's the writers (or both)?
Collin Freeman
2023-12-07 01:45:59 +0000 UTCI am one of the many who have been surprised that S1 isn't as bad as I remembered it being. However... yes. I don't want to oversell it, but subsequent seasons steadily increase in quality. As the show became more popular they were given increased budgets and a bit more leeway to be occasionally unconventional. Onscreen, the characters roles and positions were shifted a bit after season 1 & 2. A bit of fine tuning that pays off incredibly well. Behind the scenes, it took a couple of seasons for Patrick Stewart to finally come to the party. A man who already had a strong reputation, mostly in live stage performances, Sir Patrick was famously rather stogy compared to the rest of the cast and he frowned on all the "tomfoolery" during rehearsal and filming. He himself has recounted how that changed for him and how he had been, to put it in his own words "a bit of an asshole" and how things got better when he "loosened up a bit". You will probably be able to tell approximately when this happened, because onscreen Picard changes a bit as well. Mostly they emphasize his strong points and got rid of what wasn't working. Suffice it to say Picard becomes more dynamic. There is a reason he got his own show green-lit after all. But beyond that, the entire cast just became very close over the years. And a lot of that comes through onscreen in subsequent seasons as well. The TOS cast had cliques. Bill Shatner is Bill Shatner. Love him or hate him, he is a rugged individualist. James Doohan, George Takai, Nichelle Nichols, and Walter Koenig got along well but all kept Shatner at arms length (or he them). There was straight up animosity between The Shat and both Doohan and Tekai. Leonard Nimoy was the ambassador who got along with everyone. The TNG cast on the other hand is actually recognized in the industry as being one of the most closely knit ensemble cast in television. They are all genuinely good friends who still interact with one another even after all the years the show and movies had stopped. Apparently they even all gather together at least once a year to celebrate...whatever. Friendship I guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
StealthMomo
2023-12-07 00:50:02 +0000 UTCThis episode always reminds me of how my first job ended. It was a little over a year before this first aired so it was still relatively fresh for me. I had been working in a small local factory for almost seven years, and two weeks before that Christmas we were informed the owner had sold the place and our jobs were moving to Chicago (I'm in Wisconsin). The people who were taking over our jobs came up to watch how we did things. Needless to say, we were not happy with people hanging over our shoulders learning our jobs. They weren't as obnoxious as how Remmick was playing everyone, in fact they were fairly sympathetic and nice, but the atmosphere at work was similar to what is shown here. No one lost their temper, but I have to admit I gave one of them a death stare. The day before Christmas Eve ended up being our last day. I've been in a different line of work since then, but that's a whole different saga.
KatWithAttitude
2023-12-07 00:49:20 +0000 UTCI’ll be even more controversial..season 7 (while containing a few excellent episodes) is truly my least favorite.
Glenn Johnson Barnes
2023-12-07 00:44:14 +0000 UTCThis and Datalore are the two best so far.
Ken R
2023-12-07 00:42:06 +0000 UTCI always thought season one was fine and the shakiness of it was to be expected since it was something new that had to be broken in. The heart of it, the quality of the characters and premise was sound, it juts needed time to mature.
Mike Rogers
2023-12-07 00:41:50 +0000 UTCYou will hear over and over again that the series came together in Season 3.... But COMING OF AGE is the solid winner where we are treated to the feeling of what Next Gen does become: Solid, interesting, polished, aspirational, classy, charming, and more. Interspersed throughout the first two season are hints and whispers of the coming quality. COMING OF AGE has it all from beginning to end imo.
Michael Nemo
2023-12-07 00:24:16 +0000 UTCI've personally never bought into the argument that seasons 1 and 2 of TNG are terrible. Because they're not (come at me people!). Don't get me wrong, they are easily the weakest seasons of TNG and have problematic elements. But the series showed its potential right from the start - even if it occasionally stumbled in its infancy.
William McRae
2023-12-06 23:28:08 +0000 UTCActually no. Speaking as a former officer who went through this kind of testing and training, let me try and explain it like this: During this kind of testing nobody expects a cadet to make correct decisions. What they want to see is if you are able to make a decision quickly, in the moment and decisively. That means you don't hesitate and freeze up, and you also don't waver once you made the decision. Wesley aced this test. He analyzed the situation, made a decision based on that analysis, and stuck with it after that. He didn't hesitate, and once he had decided to help the injured guy, he didn't change his mind. The other person screaming and acting all panicked was supposed to lure Wesley into feeling so sorry for the guy, that he questioned his own decision making, potentially trying to save both, ending up saving nobody. But Wesley didn't do that. He followed through, didn't change his plan once he decided on a course of action. That is what they are looking for. Getting you to making the correct decisions is just a matter of giving you the knowledge and experience, that's the easy part. Being able to make a decision and sticking with it, that's hard. And I've been there. I've made a battle plan in an excercise and then something I didn't expect happened, and I faltered, changed my orders and caused chaos, which wasn't necessary, since my original orders had already contained contingency plans. But I got nervous, started to question myself and changed everything, causing chaos among my troops, because now I had to give new orders in the middle of action going on. Wesley did exactly what he was supposed to. It doesn't matter which one he saved, or whether he saved both or not. What mattered was that he was able to make a decision and follow through with it, without hesitating, or changing his mind later. That's what you need to be able to do as an officer.
Andreas Schmitt
2023-12-06 23:23:31 +0000 UTCYou're comment made me realize his arc this episode is similar to one another character has in a much later episode. I also wonder if part of the reason he wasn't accepted was because, although he faced his fear and chose to save that guy over the other, was there a BETTER way he could have tackled that situation? Convincing the other guy to help out perhaps, acting as a leader? Maybe he didn't fail, but he didn't beat it entirely.
Nolan
2023-12-06 22:57:43 +0000 UTCI remember having liked this when I watched it as a young teen. I never really liked Wesley, he always gave me a bit of a goody two-shoes/nancy drew vibe, but I really felt like a could finally relate to him here. As a kid there is pressure to not disappoint your parents, or a mentor and I mean who hasn't failed at school or a sport/activity at least a few times? Great use of the character!
Captain Proton
2023-12-06 22:29:31 +0000 UTCI think a lot of the "Season One is bad" takes come from it being so front loaded with not great elements. The pilot was a bit too padded and everone and thing was new, episode 2 was a rehash of a TOS episode, but more outlandish and straight comedy, 3 was percieved as racist, 4 was built on a character the gave off creep vibes with Wesley and episode 5 with the Ferengi probably after 5 weeks of build up and speculation of what the Ferengi were didn't live up to evpectations. Then there were thos few episodes that you pointed out Picard was written weakly, the episode where everyone was half naked... all that stuff probably initially put people off, then stood out in their memory despite there being decent episodes around them. I gaurantee there is definitely at least one episode in Season 3 you guy'll find interminable. Lotta good stuff in that season, but man do I find that one a boring episode. I also think there's a growing subset of fans who WANT to seperate each show into its own thing, probably due to the new shows getting backlash and unfavorable comparisons to the older era by other groups of fans causing there to be resistance to viewing each show as part of a cohesive whole, in order to maintain enjoyment in the face of such criticism.
Nolan
2023-12-06 21:46:51 +0000 UTCOh! You're a bit younger than I was guessing. I am even more impressed with your often astute predictions/observations.
Jovet
2023-12-06 21:31:15 +0000 UTCThis. Picard is a lot like Picard, Riker is a lot like Riker (maybe a bit hot-headed, but) and Data and Worf are completely like themselves.
JD Nevesytrof
2023-12-06 21:18:17 +0000 UTCOnce we hit this point in the season, I think some of the awkwardness in dialogue and tone has mostly gone away. And the characters are starting to act more like they will later on. A lot of the kinks have been worked out as the season ends, I believe.
Joe Concepts
2023-12-06 20:51:54 +0000 UTCYour explanation makes a great deal of sense.
Numinous2019
2023-12-06 20:50:53 +0000 UTCHe also thinks he is being disruptive by hovering over everyone, and tossing out vague accusations, with no explanation.
Joe Concepts
2023-12-06 20:49:05 +0000 UTCI think the main point for Wesley was to make ANY choice at all. He could have frozen up because Picard had to make a choice that got his dad killed. So yes... the other "choice" would have been freezing up, being unable to make any decision and let both people die because of it. That happens. I've known people that are completely incapable of making any decisions in a stressful situation. And they DO actually test stuff like this when you apply to become an officer. They make sure you are a personality that is capable of making decisions. Whether the decision is right or wrong is secondary, because even a bad decision is better than being unable to make any at all.
Andreas Schmitt
2023-12-06 20:46:01 +0000 UTCThis aspect of Riker re-appears again most famously in season 6. Both times though it is in response to specific behaviours by other Starfleet officers. I'd give Riker some leeway in 'Coming Of Age', because Remmick is deliberately needling and probing the Enterprise officers in the least friendly, but effective, way he can.
Numinous2019
2023-12-06 20:27:51 +0000 UTCYou may remember, the interrogation scene gimmick with the seamless transitions between people being questioned was used to great effect in the Firefly episode "Bushwhacked". There was no direct equivalent to the Worf reflection reveal, but throughout the scene, the Alliance officer would ask one of the Serenity crew a question, but the answer be given by a different crew member, changing the meaning of the question asked.
David Felgate
2023-12-06 20:05:45 +0000 UTCI’m sure we will revisit in some form
Josh (Target Audience)
2023-12-06 19:15:55 +0000 UTCIt's a silly thought but will you guys entertain the idea of rewatching a patreon-picked Season 1 episode around the time you, say, begin Season 7? It'd be great seeing the glaring differences in the storytelling and characters by the time you get there...and it's an experience all of us have been living right now, for better or worse.
JD Nevesytrof
2023-12-06 19:12:49 +0000 UTCThat’s awesome I’m glad we are the reason you finally watched this one
Josh (Target Audience)
2023-12-06 18:53:32 +0000 UTCI'm going to make a confession. Despite having watched this show since it was on the air, I've literally never seen this episode, partly because Wesley, partly because Season 1's reputation and partly because the plot didn't appeal to me, but I finally watched it to contribute to the Patron Takes and again with you guys and if this wasn't one of the best episodes of the series! There's a very small handful of TNG I haven't gotten to yet in among the vast majority I've watched many many times so I'm going to have to commit to completing with your channel.
JD Nevesytrof
2023-12-06 18:51:14 +0000 UTCLoved the discussion. I knew you were going to love this one and I'm glad you found your special episode, Josh :)
Andreas Schmitt
2023-12-06 18:20:04 +0000 UTCLate 20s, met in 6th grade became close friends in 10th grade
Josh (Target Audience)
2023-12-06 17:50:36 +0000 UTCSo how old are you two? I take it you've known each other a while as well.
Jovet
2023-12-06 17:47:59 +0000 UTCIt's behavior like in this episode that makes me sometimes dislike Riker as a character, he comes off as very immature. Like you said Kirk had a more calm and understanding side and taking that away from Riker didn't do the character any favors. Riker is a pretty high ranking officer in starfleet, he knows what it means to give and receive orders, so for him to act like this towards Remmick who he knows is under orders from the admiral to do what he's doing makes me question if he should be in a position of authority at all because he feels like someone who holds a grudge and would punish people for following legal orders.
Phillip Grischa
2023-12-06 17:25:12 +0000 UTCMike Vejar went on to direct many cool-looking Babylon 5 episodes.
tyranusfan
2023-12-06 17:20:57 +0000 UTCNice bottle opener!
tyranusfan
2023-12-06 17:19:21 +0000 UTCSo... about that series centered on Starfleet Academy.... production begins next year
James Bottas
2023-12-06 17:10:34 +0000 UTCWe discuss it at the start of the reaction
Josh (Target Audience)
2023-12-06 17:09:18 +0000 UTCAny reason for the separate videos?
Andreas Schmitt
2023-12-06 17:01:47 +0000 UTCRiker being personally offended and defensive against anyone questioning the Enterprise is something that comes up now and then. But it's also shown to not be completely personal. It's more that he is proud of the ship and the crew and he knows how lucky he is to be there. Riker, especially going forward, can have a temper about those things.
Joe Concepts
2023-12-06 16:41:01 +0000 UTCI forget to leave a Patreon comment on this one. This is a really good Season One episode. Perhaps not my favorite, but it does establish a few nice things. Michael Vejar is a regular director on Babylon 5, incidentally. I was totally expecting one of you to make a V'GER joke out of it.
Steven Johnson
2023-12-06 15:48:50 +0000 UTC
