March 8, 2025 - Update
Added 2025-03-08 07:24:33 +0000 UTCHi!
I don’t have too much to report. It was another good week of writing, which I’m thankful for.
I spent some time thinking about the lengths of series. Can a series get too long and people stop reading or won’t start it? I feel like there is this constant war between spending time with certain aspects like crafting or city building or leveling and a series going on for too long.
Please let me know your thoughts in the comments. Some authors have finished multiple series between 3 and 7 books while others are still going with no end in sight. I know the Royal Road route lends itself to endless chapters which is probably why many of those stories are still going.
The reason I think about it is because it affects the decisions I make. Some ideas require many chapters, and those choices would keep pushing the end of the story arc farther away.
In some ways I feel like I shouldn’t make choices based on how many books it will create in the series. I should just tell the story I want to tell and if it ends up as twenty books so be it.
On the other hand, is ten or fifteen or twenty books a terrible business/marketing decision because a significant amount of readers either drop off or don’t start the series because of the length.
I’m interested in everyone’s opinions on this.
I opened chapter 3 for Root.
I opened chapter 4, 5, and 6 for Harvester.
I added chapters 7, 8, and 9 for Step Master, Blapy’s Favorite, Divine, and Axiom.
Enjoy!
Thank you for being a part of this Patreon.
Take care,
AFK
Comments
I found this series back when there were only 4 and I breezed through them. I found out about it while waiting for more cradle books. I’ve stuck around and have no intention of stopping. 1. As a person who typically reads series where each book is significantly longer than the divine apostasy series, I think of the number of books in a series as relative. Relatively, this isn’t a crazy long series. 2. I think this question speaks a lot to preference. You can find examples of really long series that are successful and vice versa. 3. As an artist myself, I’m always of the mind of following where the art takes you. If it gives you joy to really marinade in a world and that means 20+ books, then follow what gives you joy. Doesn’t seem like that has led you astray yet. 4. Selfishly.. Moar!!!
Elle Mahaney
2025-03-31 02:06:50 +0000 UTCI think you should follow your original intentions. To wrap up this series with the release of Spirit back on Grave. And then to begin the outer verse portion as a new series.
Douglas Davis
2025-03-26 11:43:48 +0000 UTCI love a long book series. I actively seek out a longer world to get immersed in, but there is a point where a reader might diverge. I found Divine Apostasy back when there was only 6 books in the series and have stuck around since. I was a very avid reader. However, I ended up dropping the series early during book 10 as did my friend who I introduced to the series. It was once Ruwen had the power to take on the gods and fight them but with all the outer verse stuff that plan got thrown off the rails. It felt as if we were starting a new story without the original getting resolved. I could just be lacking info as I didn’t finish book 10 and 11 is out now, but at the time it didn’t seem that that resolution would come anytime soon. It is your series and I don’t want to tell you how to write as I do believe you to be a good writer. I am eager to see what you have planned for our other Axiom but my interest in Divine Apostasy has puttered out for the moment. I love the idea of super long series but with how things are going with the outer verse stuff it feels like we are expanding before much is getting resolved.
Gama
2025-03-17 15:29:41 +0000 UTCI personally love long book series, especially when they’re as well-written as yours. Every book leaves me wanting more, and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve reread them. When I look for a new series, I specifically seek out longer ones because I enjoy getting fully immersed in a world and knowing there’s a lot to explore. Your series has so much depth and potential I genuinely don’t want it to end. The way you’ve developed the story, the characters, and the world keeps me completely engaged, and I know I’ll keep coming back to it no matter how long it runs. That said, I think the most important thing is for you to tell the story you want to tell. Whether it ends up being twelve books or twenty, I’ll be here for the journey, and I know many others will be too!
Stephen
2025-03-14 05:20:31 +0000 UTCWrite whatever appeals to you. I love when Shirtaloon of "He Who Fights With Monsters" adds in a bunch of short stories to pass time with different points of view. If a plotline won't leave your head, write it down. I love seeing small shenanigans and slice of life content, lore dumps, and the tying up of dangling plotlines. One of my favorite authors, Nalini Singh has so much free content on her website. It allows people to visit their favorite characters and be pulled deeper into the story to continue reading. I've seen a few people mention book 6 as being a little slow or long, but I actually loved it. There are other books where I really didn't like most of the book for various reasons. It just goes to show that right what you want to write. You can't fake enjoyment in writing a series. People that love to read understand that we all have different preferences, so the only time you should ever pivot is in case of plot holes and out of character behavior. I suppose if you worry about bringing in new people, you could offer Cliff 's notes versions in a volume set. That way, people can enter and exit the series as needs be in a way that is still profitable to you. Plus, nowadays, readers don't always have time for a series reread before every new book release. Your recap of the previous book was good, but I felt like I was back in college because I haven't fully understood what's going on, and that affected my ability to get into the story. So a Cliff's notes version that goes into more detail than a simple recap might be able to better organize plotlines and magical systems. Someone mentioned a wiki, which would provide the similar service, although looking stuff up online leads to distractions I've found. Even if you do nothing but continue to write as you have, I'm excited to read more and maybe see you at litRPG con!
Shae Carson
2025-03-13 06:34:46 +0000 UTCMy brother and I debate this all the time, he's not a fan of long series as a rule. Calls them serial stories. I always say it depends on the author, and the story being told. If your writing starts to feel forced, or lacking in substance it's time to start tieing up plot threads and bring the story to a conclusion. A lot of authors get to this point and seem to rush to an unsatisfying end. Personally I prefer long series. Best I can say is it's your story, tell it how you want to. I love your work and would love to see it move into the outerverse. I look forward to seeing where you will take us and I'm glad to be along for the ride
Dylan Simper
2025-03-13 00:37:55 +0000 UTCWhen I am looking for new books, I have found them hard to find and harder to invest time in starting a whole new story and engaging with a whole new world, just for it to end abruptly after I found out how much I liked it. If they are too short, I don’t get a lot of value for my investment in them and I have to start over again and look for another book when it’s all over, The lazy in me prefers a long series so I don’t have to go fishing for new books as often. If anything, I wish your individual books were all twice as long, and that your series pretty much never ends. ;-)
King Nereus
2025-03-11 19:26:24 +0000 UTCFirst, we are all biased super fans here, so you probably can’t go wrong with us no matter what you decide to do. We will still support you in whatever that may be, NOTE: Sorry for the long post, I just updated it and made it even longer..oops . The TL;DR is really who cares, do as you like. We will follow. But I think it is perfectly fine for you to keep going as long as you want to keep going with the current series or arc, or even start a new arc w/o needing to turn it into a new series. If you care that much about collecting opinions, I think the series length doesn’t matter as much as the story telling, As long as it remains an interesting read, who would complain? A longer and engaging high quality series is a great thing in my opinion. Book six for example, while it was extra long, that in itself would have been ok but it was also very slow. I started enjoying things a lot more toward the end of that book and now every book since. There is a lot of things in all of these books that you probably didn’t need to spell out for us at all let alone repeatedly, but it mostly works quite well and I believe the pacing is just fine now, if anything I can hardly believe so much happens in such a short period of time at this point. I assume there is a good reason for having Ruwen’s cheat his way through the divine tiers that will be revealed soon, but at some point this kid has got to hit a wall, right? Right? It’s absurd, but I will admit I do love it. Regarding extending the series vs getting to the end of the arc and starting the next series, were you thinking about potentially incorporating some of the outerverse arc stuff in divine apostasy or extending the current arc? If you intended in the next arc for Ruwen and friends to go deal with the outerverse and remain the lens through which we see this world, then I think keeping that arc in the same series would make the most sense tbh. If you start a new thing with these people you need to front load this huge exposition dump at the beginning, of the new series anyway to catch the new people up on where we are in the story, right? And if you do that, what motivation do they have to go back and read the old series anyway? It isn’t too big of a deal either way, but I am struggling to see much value in making the continuation a new series unless you can start from a clean slate, where the reader doesn’t need to know anything about what happened before, in order to start enjoying it. Cevin and Ash having their own stories works well and makes a lot of sense, as the reader doesn’t really need to know anything about them or their worlds before diving in, and no other books (that I am aware of at least) have covered much on them yet. So their own book series, the character introduction/development can accumulate more naturally and doesn’t feel repetitive for readers of your other books. In these cases, you’re able to acknowledge the existence of the other books and even incorporate elements you wish to, but they remain unbound to one another, and the reader doesn’t need to get through a massive info dump nor feel like they read to do homework reading something else before they can start the book they were interested in and actually came to read. Both are barriers to engagement with your stories, and I love that you were able to navigate around that issue in these cases. All of that to say unless there is a really good reason to make a new series, you shouldn’t feel compelled to do that. You will still have plenty of opportunity to add another series, and another, if you want to remain in this world with your stories. If you want to move on, that is ok too. You have built an amazing world here, and I am positive you could write several completely new stories within this world and keep going pretty much for as long as you want. This world is so massive, and the stories you have are already referencing such an immense span of time. This feels really big to me, like Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, Harry Potter, Star Wars, all very big settings. I am biased of course, but there are many side stories that can be happening in parallel to Ruwen’s shenanigans, before Ruwen existed, and long after Ruwen has accomplished all of this goals or is killed, or wherever it all ends up. The stories don’t all need to have save universe or outerverse level stakes to be compelling reads. I really enjoyed some of the stories about the black pyramid side quests they did without Ruwen, for example. I bet you could get a whole series just out of Io’s adventures through the eons, or tell the story of Pen’s rise in power with maybe some cool tidbits about his old master and Taro meddling somehow from the shadows across all of these series, an introduction to Pen’s disciples when they were younger, showing their transformation from brats to gods and the motivations that fueled their growth, and what were Pen’s motivations for helping them, did he just want to help his friends, or was there some impending doom they were trying to avoid similar to Ruwen? What was the catalyst for them all turning on each other, was Pen the only bond they shared? Perhaps some glimpses into the devastation they caused before the pact, and what made Miranda so different from the rest? She obviously loved Pen but supposedly they all did. What about Lal’s perspective and motivational changes on his journey from purity to nihilism, and his expansion throughout the universe looking for those books and other artifacts over the millennia. We know all of these things happened, but we never got to experience the journey, and there could be plenty of interesting happenings along the way, the darkness stands out as the big thing they had to deal with, but there were probably lots of other things we don’t know about at all. What was the universe like back then? The voidwalkers origin/lore or something interesting happening in the apparently rich world within the void Varthan was talking about, or even the outerverse origin story could be one of them, it doesn’t necessarily need to have the MCs we already know and love in them at all. Just a quick cameo here and there to place them in the world, or maybe just a place they have been to is all you would need to link the series, without tightly coupling them to the degree you’re forcing the reader to do homework to enjoy the series that attracted them. In all of these cases you don’t have to front load a bunch of exposition explaining where we are in Ruwen’s story, or expecting the reader to just have read all the other mostly unrelated stories, other than them existing in the same world.
King Nereus
2025-03-11 19:17:59 +0000 UTCIt's your series, you will know when you need to end it or make a shift. Don't get bent around what you think is a norm. You have some great memorable characters. Drizzt(I know different genre) is a character with many arcs...but is at 40 books at this point. In that light Ruwen is just getting started. Don't rush it, keep doing what you're doing.
Divegoat
2025-03-10 04:39:57 +0000 UTCI think what you're running into is the comparison of litrpg and cultivation novels. If you look only at litrpg and the level based systems, then yes their stories tend to have less than ten books. Excluding the most popular series. Cultivation novels on the other hand are spectacularly long. One I read was 19 books. The other got bored with the story and started writing something else. A thousand li is on 11 or 12 books and is not showing any chance of slowing. Immortal realm by Ivan Kal is 6 or 7 books in but his books are three times the length of yours. Yes, Will Wight went 12 and out with Cradle but that was a natural conclusion and the pacing on his books are 3 or 4 times what yours are. If the stress for trying to keep up with Travis' schedule is causing an issue, skip it and work on something that doesn't make you feel burned out. Flesh out Ash's story or revisit Cevin. Hell, write something completely unrelated and not in their enclosed universe. It's a job, but if you're not enjoying it, it'll reflect in the work. On a personal note, I'm enjoying the story length as it is. There's plenty to round out. Ruwen becoming the ultimate chosen one, potentially unifying the outer verse realms. Will all his friends make it to the end whole and hearty? Will Blappys backup work as advertised and make everyone essentially immortal? Will their souls deteriorate due to so many deaths? Will the towers join in Ruwens body and become his nodes? Find out next time on Dragon Ball! (That show is still running and making money)
Lonnie
2025-03-10 00:40:07 +0000 UTCTell the story that needs to be told. If that takes a lot of books, great. If that takes a few books, that’s fine also. Please don’t shorten the story simply because you worry about the number of books it will take.
SMB
2025-03-09 18:58:35 +0000 UTCI still read HWFWM .. i keep un subscribing in frustration then returning when he starts a new story arc. His slice of life segments are okay. When he gets into a new arc he is very good. But often between most arcs, at least on patreon he does about 10 plus chapters sometimes more of just being maudlin and doing nothing. Example. Before entering the battle with undeath forces [that arc where he gets a birthing tree] not only did he do numerous, powers bad, I'm very powerful, I could be bad, but i don't want to be bad, just about every member of team biscuit had a chapter where they said the same thing about him too some other person. If felt like it was never ending. Spent over a month of releases on patreon doing that and being maudlin and zero action or plot development. Ie Filler.
TwistedVanity
2025-03-09 11:25:29 +0000 UTCI think you should tell the story you want to tell. personally, I like longer series and specifically look for them because it I like a series I like spending more time on that world.
Zefira Shannon
2025-03-08 19:54:29 +0000 UTCLook, in my opinion, don’t give a single damn what other people think, this is your work, your series, so wright it as you feel like it should be written. So what if you lose some people who feel like they cannot read or listen to as the case may be a series just because they think it is too long, you may actually gain others who like reading a long series or listening to it depending on what platform they are using. Personally, I would be more encouraged to listen to a series, just to clarify I use Audible, if it was longer since there is more listening material and that is what I like. Remember, this is your work, your series, so write it like you want it to be written.
MadMan1299
2025-03-08 17:43:14 +0000 UTCThe series should continue until all of the main plot points are resolved. Each book should see some progress towards that goal. In the Divine Apostasy series that is a stable universe with spirit in it. Side plots and sub plots should exist because the story is a rich living universe with a lot going on, but the books should be focused on the main plot. These plots can tie into the main plot or turn out not to, but the main character shouldn't get lost in the weeds forever. Knowing the goal of the series. Ruwen should be building towards that goal with his actions. Gaining strength, and searching for how to accomplish that goal is part of that. It naturally leads to encountering side and sub plots, but diverting away from the main plot for too long lessens the perceived urgency and threat. So as with everything, balance is key. You've been doing a good job so far tying everything together, just remember you don't need to fit everything into this series. The universe will still exist and more series can be written to explore other aspects of it in greater depth.
Revan694
2025-03-08 17:28:54 +0000 UTCTell the story you're moved to tell; length be damned !
Jeff C
2025-03-08 16:44:15 +0000 UTCI get most of my entertainment from reading so I actually won't start a series unless it is at least 4 books long. Most shorter series feel forced to me. I love long stories with lots of details and world building but I know people who are the complete opposite of me and won't even read classics because there are too many books in the series. I am fine with a single story being covered by multiple series though. It can be refreshing to have each arc be its own series and can feel less daunting to those who prefer shorter series.
Harrison Hogan
2025-03-08 15:26:56 +0000 UTCSame, I think he might be a muse in disguise or sonething
Sebastian Cortes
2025-03-08 14:56:44 +0000 UTCWell said, A.F. Kay seems to have a supernatural talent for pacing, can't say I've read anything else quite like his works when it comes to that.
Historia Jinn
2025-03-08 14:55:24 +0000 UTCFor some, the length of the series matters less than if it's complete. But I am also a fan of efficient writing so I am always down for writing as little as necessary for each book.
Bob of Doom
2025-03-08 14:35:59 +0000 UTCSo going to age myself here. I grew up reading the Trixie Belden series which was like 39 books! Dipped my toe into the fantasy genre for the first time with The Sword of Truth series (21 books) and The Wheel of Time (14 books). So series with more than five or six books doesn’t daunt me. I am in the same frame of mind as many of the previous commenters; keep telling your stories your way and write as many chapters/books as it takes to do that. It’s not about the number of books, it’s about the quality of the content, which you definitely have going on here. I enjoy and appreciate the world building, multiple characters interacting and progression. I can’t wait to get and read more!
Angie Smith
2025-03-08 14:33:15 +0000 UTCOne of the best series I have read in a very long while in invested in the development the story the fleshing out of worlds everything if this series went to 25-30 books with no end in site I would keep reading I personally think that with all the implications the books should keep going and just the arcs be filled out as they come the story and your storytelling is absolutely amazing don’t worry about the length let it flow when the river stops it leads to a sea or ocean and if that’s what we gotta navigate then so be it
errol davis
2025-03-08 14:15:16 +0000 UTCGenuinely, I have never even once considered that this series is getting long. I don’t know how but you do an excellent job with pacing and storytelling that makes me forget about the length. Please, don’t change the story because of what you’re scared other people will want, glorious just the way it is
Sebastian Cortes
2025-03-08 13:45:33 +0000 UTCI want to read/listen to the story you intend and how you see if in your mind. If that requires more books then I'm all for it, I'm personally the type that get attached to stories so you'll probably never hear me say you need to end it soon.
Lukas Eagleton
2025-03-08 13:23:13 +0000 UTCI agree. Plus if there's a large gap between books then please please do a recap. But most fantasy fans seem to prefer a series, and don't mind the length as long as it's vibrant, has a point, and feels like the story is progressing
TwistedVanity
2025-03-08 12:30:18 +0000 UTC'Primal hunter' I feel drags it's feet a little here and there and I enjoy the slice of life bits in 'he who fights with monsters' but setting my personal opinion to the side on the examples used, this commenter is 100 percent on to it.
Historia Jinn
2025-03-08 12:28:01 +0000 UTCThe story pacing has been some of the best I've read. I'd definitely say just tell the story your looking to tell and let the rest fall where it may.
Historia Jinn
2025-03-08 12:24:06 +0000 UTCAlso as others said. As long as you are writing for you and enjoying the process, that will come across in the stories you tell and will keep them alive and vibrant. And us the readers addicted. When you start writing solely due to demand [readers, publishers money] after you have lost your enthusiasm for a series that also comes across and ruins the story. Even David Gemmel did that. Re visited arcs and storyline due to pressure from his publisher and the stories suffered as a result. The Divine Apostasy story is focused, has good plot driven impetus and feels vibrant and compelling. I am assuming the arc in his universe will end with his repairing it and defeating the home grown enemies. Then he will move on to the main universe where the factions are and a new story will start and develop from there where he fights to save his universe from them. Which will be a natural progression for the story. .. or something similar. I would love that
TwistedVanity
2025-03-08 11:47:05 +0000 UTCI personally think its all about the content. The Dresden Files is at book 17 now, and I am anxious for the next book. As long as the story continues to be engaging, people will read it and recommend it. There will be those that look at the number of books and give up. But if the story is truly good and engaging, people will keep reading. Others will recommend the books and they'll give many generations of readers enjoyment. I hate a story that is cut off short because of nothing but fear. Many stories still have a lot to share but the authors chicken out too early. Authors do this because they fear people will quit reading, but I don't think that's true if the story continues to engage and just doesn't become ordinary. Stories that continue to be full of wonder will always find an audience regardless of their length. The more wonder, the greater the interest. We all LOVE wonder. Just keep writing your wonderful story/stories. Dream big. Bigger than anyone believes you have a right to. The world will love you for it. I know I do. Thank you for doing what you do. I appreciate you very much.
Joe
2025-03-08 11:41:18 +0000 UTCDifficult to give a simple answer. Depends. If the story still feels like it is progressing and has a goal, an eventual ending then it can keep going indefinitely. Look at defiance of the fall by a f brinks, Primal Hunter by zogarth. Even randidly ghost hound. Two of those are still on going and feel alive a vibrant. They also feel like they are still building to an eventually goal and ending. Which is important. You can also end and arc, complete a story and give the reader the satisfaction of a conclusion. But then have new stories that lead forwards for that character and world. That also works and we the readers love that. Look at drizzt do'urden, forgotten realms. Numerous stories for that character and world. Each with satisfying endings then new stories for him. Avoid pointless filler whilst you think up the next story arc that's annoying and insulting. Ie He Who Fights Monsters. It often feels like it's mainly filler whilst he works out a new story arc. Then the new stories are okay. But the aimless going nowhere segments killed off my interest. He should have took a break and come back when he had a new story for that character then gone from there. Even the wheel of time by Robert Jordan had one book in the series that felt like filler and went no where. And there are books that just feel like they are going no where. Like they will never reach any conclusion. These are awful. I hate them and drop them like hot potatoes when I realise, or believe that about them. I've read a few but never bothered to remember the titles or authors as hated them that much
TwistedVanity
2025-03-08 11:40:54 +0000 UTCI'm of the opinion that series must end. I stop caring about endless stories. Things end up repeating, they get filled with the same plots where only the names change to protect the guilty.
Jeremiah Halstead
2025-03-08 10:53:53 +0000 UTCI love a good story. Especially when it keeps me reading. PLEASE write the story you dreamed of writing because it's the story I want to read no matter how long it takes.
Lena M. Lucente
2025-03-08 10:50:30 +0000 UTCYou should tell your story. There’s no answer to the what ifs, trust yourself and the story. We wish you the best!
Abhishek
2025-03-08 10:35:38 +0000 UTCHonestly Divine Apostasy is so plot/progression focused I don't think the length is much of an issue personally. I really hate going through a long series that's just inflated fluff and word count to make it a long series. A series that naturally develops into many books to tell the whole story is much better than a shorter one that ends too soon without explaining stuff to curb the length. Additionally with it being in the progression fantasy genre many people find a longer series more attractive than with other genres. Even just in fantasy, the more popular series (Malazan, WoT, First Law, etc.) are on the longer side anyways. I say tell the story you want to tell, I've seen a few stories go downhill when they can't write it how they wanted to.
Quinton Darcy
2025-03-08 09:07:11 +0000 UTCI don't think it really matters. It can be overwhelming if someone joins at say book 5 of a 20 book series because there are 4 previous books needed before the series really makes sense and it only get worse the later in the books you start and longer the series. However a good recap can go a long way in fixing this issue. I'd perfer the story to be told properly rather than be rushed. I'm of the opinion that this story isn't just 13 books but 15 minimum to tie up all lose ends. I also wouldn't mind just finishing this arc and starting a second arc in the same series. I'm of the opinion the all Ruwens adventures should be called Divine Apostasy Ash’s Divine Awakening and so on. That being said I have read most of the dune series so I'm all for long series please just don't pull a final dune book on us where it gets weird and overcomplicated. Not saying it's a bad book just somethings got confusing because small things became huge things which caused me to have to either Google the thing or go back and reread, mostly Google. Ps a Wikipedia of your universe will also help with longer series being easier to understand and not get lost.
William WIlson
2025-03-08 08:06:23 +0000 UTCIt's a hard one to judge because it really all depends on if a reader feels like the series is full of fluff or not. IMO Divinty Apostasy has been quite focused it that regard with only maybe Book 6 being my least favourite in an excellent series because of how long Ruwen is trapped in space without the supporting characters that made the book feel more like a trainage montage. Both One Piece and Solo Leveling are incredibly popular and while one is still going to this day (1100+ chapters) the other created a focused story (270 chapters WN) and ignored most character and world building for a more action packed fast paced story. I think your current plan has a lot of merit by making a "Series 2" which takes surviving characters and puts them on their next adventure while giving readers the option to call it a day at Divine Apostasy and also not putting off potential new readers that want to read a finished series but wrapping up to quickly could sour some readers from wanting to read the next one Personally I am on this train until the end if you want to keep writing. I am also one of those readers however, that also reads Primal Hunter, HWFWM, Defiance of the Fall and Elemental Gatherers and they are all similar length or longer than this series, with as you put it, "no end in sight."
Pickled Rick
2025-03-08 07:45:50 +0000 UTCin my opinion as someone who read all the wheel of time books after the series completed, I say keep making books so long as youve got a story to tell. the people who really care will keep reading and the only people who wont read or will fall off are those who wouldnt likely buy the books anyway. also the difference between a book series thats 3 books and one that 6 books seems a lot longer than the difference between 6 books and 16, that is to say that if someone has read 6 books into a series theyre likely to continue reading as many books as you want to make. anyway sorry for the rant and thanks for all the amazing work over the years im looking forward to all your future books.
Mitchell Bizon
2025-03-08 07:32:12 +0000 UTC
