Episode 20: Pitch-accent patterns for atamadaka verbs
Added 2017-06-09 17:24:23 +0000 UTCBibliography
Japanese Phonetics Index Page
Good evening Patrons!
In this lesson I address the pitch-accent patterns of atamadaka verbs.
If you have any questions leave a comment below, and thank you very much for your continued support!
Best from Beppu,
Dōgen
Comments
Hi Steph, this isn't something I'm qualified to answer as I can't recall ever learning about this circumstance (in words that end with つ) specifically, but if I'm recalling things correctly, in his book 'The Sounds of Japanese' Dr. Timothy J Vance has an extensive section on devoicing and some regular exceptions / oddities when it comes to the aforementioned 'end of word devoicing' as well as 'in between voiceless consonant devoicing'. This is a bit too much for me to try and cover here, again because besides what I covered in my previous comment and the recent video there isn't too much I know off hand about this particular subject, but if this sounds interesting to you I'd highly recommend Dr. Vance's book! In my own personal experience I've noticed that women tend to voice final う when it could / should theoretically be devoiced more than men, but again this is completely anecdotal, so please take it with a grain of salt. Hope this helps, cheers!
Dogen
2021-06-28 11:33:27 +0000 UTCThank you very much! I was also wondering if there is some kind of rule as to when people would pronounce the う in つ-ending words as voiceless. Is it more common for men to pronounce it as voiceless than women? I am actually currently studying phonetics at university and I love Japanese. Your course has helped me tremendously with understanding pitch accent :)
Steph Mcw
2021-06-27 15:47:43 +0000 UTCHi Steph, unfortunately when it comes to devoicing at the end of words, it's more of a 'can' than a 'will'. That is to say, the devoicing of い and う certainly can occur if the preceding sound is voiceless and there is no following sound, but even in these circumstances, it doesn't always happen. Many speakers certainly do say 待つ as 'mats', but there are other speakers that say 'matsu', and some speakers even alternate between the two. If the vowels い and う are in-between voiceless consonants, they are almost always devoiced (unless something with pitch-accent / consecutive devoicing is occurring), but at the end of the words, there is just a bit more speaker variation. It certainly can occur in these circumstances, and often does, but not always, even for the same speaker / word. Does this answer your question? Cheers!
Dogen
2021-06-25 11:48:24 +0000 UTCHi Dogen! I'm just wondering, is the う in the つ that verbs such as 待つ end with devoiced? If so, that would make a lot of sense that they would all be 頭高
Steph Mcw
2021-06-25 07:54:58 +0000 UTCHi! Do you mean you want to know the pitch-accent of these conjugations when attached to atamadaka verbs?
Dogen
2020-11-09 04:17:56 +0000 UTCCan I know the pitch accents for secondary conjugations of ながら・れる・られる・させる？
穂凜絢
2020-11-08 19:30:34 +0000 UTCthat is actually very true!!!
Gregorio Bonini
2020-09-04 15:00:06 +0000 UTCHi Risend, 2 mora words can't be 中高, on 頭高, 中高, or 平板, so the answer to your question is 頭高 2 mora verbs!
Dogen
2019-07-13 14:07:53 +0000 UTCAre there more 頭高 2 mora verbs or 中高 2 mora verbs? I figure I would just learn the ones in one pile and assume all other 2 mora verbs are in the other pile. Thanks!
Vinh Le
2019-07-12 19:56:21 +0000 UTCHi Julius! Thanks for the recommendation. While I won't be able to change this for any of the videos I've already posted, I'll certainly take this into consideration going forward. Thank you also for your generous support!
Dogen
2019-03-24 14:09:30 +0000 UTCHello Dogen. I would find it convenient if, when you repeat the pronunciations, the words would be shown first without hints for a second. Then I could stop the video and test myself if I remembered them correctly. I think this would help in commiting to memory compared to just repeating after you.
Julius Jacobsen
2019-03-23 15:35:14 +0000 UTCHi Walt, yes I do say that in this video. These various 見る forms are covered at 5:30, and 飲まない is covered at 6:42. As the graphics indicate, all of these are 中高。Cheers!
Dogen
2018-09-04 00:31:52 +0000 UTCDid you say somewhere that 見ながら, 見れる, 見られる, 見される and 飲まない (etc) should effectively be (or at least sound like) なかだか? If so, please tell me where so I can review the details.
Walt Poor
2018-09-03 22:23:24 +0000 UTCHi Alex. Great question. Unfortunately the answer is no, as there are many common 2-mora verbs which are not 頭高, such as the following: 行く 飛ぶ 呼ぶ やる する 盛る etc. ^^ Cheers!
Dogen
2018-04-12 22:58:06 +0000 UTCHi Dogen, You said that "almost all 頭高 verbs are 2-mora". Is the reverse also true to any extent: 2-mora verbs are usually 頭高? Thanks!
Alex Ashby
2018-04-12 13:09:47 +0000 UTCThanks for the answer, and I'm definitely looking forward to future videos.
HB
2017-06-22 19:09:16 +0000 UTCHi HB ^^ interesting dreams! Definitely been there lol This is a great question—I'll be sure to cover it in the future in one of the highly advanced episodes :) Thanks for bringing it up!
Dogen
2017-06-22 10:27:08 +0000 UTCI discovered your Patreon in late April, about 4 months into studying Japanese, and on your advice have now watched the same three episodes of the same show about 50 times (this is about an hour worth of watching--which felt about right in comparison?). I am now dreaming lines from these episodes out of context. In my dreams, my mom tells me "現実を受け止めきれないよ!" In a man's voice. Even when it's completely inappropriate. But here's an actual question--are you going to cover pitch-accent patterns for nouns that take する at some point? I've been trying to figure out how it works on my own, and as best as I can tell, it feels like 平板 する nouns (which there are a LOT of) result in a 平板 verb. 挨拶 is 頭高, and I think that 挨拶する is also atamadaka. But 愛 is atamadaka and 愛する is (again, I think, am not sure) 中高. Is this just 愛する being weird? Sorry if you're already planning a lesson on this--I can wait patiently, promise!
HB
2017-06-21 15:19:31 +0000 UTCIt's my pleasure ^^ I'm glad that you find the series so helpful! Good luck with your studies and I'll hold you to that comment :D
Dogen
2017-06-13 10:49:13 +0000 UTCThank you for doing this series. I finally understand what I intuitively felt but could not articulate was missing from the language instruction I had access to. I look forward to meeting you in person and thanking you in Japanese.
N
2017-06-11 17:52:11 +0000 UTCJust sent you a message! Apologies for the trouble!
Dogen
2017-06-11 01:17:36 +0000 UTCThanks Jeff! Appreciate the continued support ^^ I do! In fact, I plan on making a video that has all of the 'golden rules' of Japanese :) It'll be one of the last lessons in the pitch-accent series :)
Dogen
2017-06-11 01:11:52 +0000 UTCThis video is unavailable
Jeremy Mize
2017-06-11 00:03:48 +0000 UTCCongrats again on all of the new patrons Dogen! :P Just curious: do you plan on putting together some type of written summary with all of the main pitch accent rules that you cover in the video series?
Jeff Bernstein
2017-06-10 15:54:34 +0000 UTCHi Panga ^^ Thanks for the comment and video idea! I actually really like it—I'll probably end up making a video about foreign English teachers in Japan. If it's not too much trouble can you clarify 'なかなか' and 'ワッカワッカワッカ' statement? I think I have an idea of what you're asking but I'd just like to make sure. Thanks for the post below as well! ^^
Dogen
2017-06-10 02:47:22 +0000 UTCIncidentally, for those like me learning the loved Japanese language, I wrote a little thing a while ago. I will post here if you dont mind. It is very childlike. Utsukushii Japanese language is that which the more I know the less I know the more I like the more I like the more I understand and the less I understand – the more I like. I like its charming childlike sounds I like its hide-and-seek of words I like its beautifying of words I like its addition of non-words to words I like its love of structure and non-structure I like its cadence more like a train with a few clear stops I am refreshed by its simple grammar and few exceptions and baffled by its writing system adopted from Chinese and made irregular and chaotic so that I dare not guess-read the names of my japanese friends so as not to call them “lion-cub-rice-field-swamp” and last but not least I love its loanwordmaking square-type forge – by that it is made all the more childlike and all the more beautiful and I simply love it. When near you I am your babe-in-arms. <a href="http://patanga.srichinmoycentre.org/japan" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://patanga.srichinmoycentre.org/japan</a>
Patanga Cordeiro
2017-06-09 19:05:36 +0000 UTCHi Dogen博士 (・Д・)ノthanks for the lessons and sincerely hope it works well professionally for you too ! For us students they are mind(ear)-opening! I just wonder if you will have time to explain the somewhat unheard なかなか and ワッカワッカワッカ pitch accents as well.... and in which far, far away galaxies they are most commonly used. You can resume using the head-thing for such a special lesson (it is much cooler :). Why not a comedy skit about foreign English teachers in Japan? I have been following your skits for sometime already - I really like them. I can relate to the things, plus it is a nice and clean humour. Patanga(コメント分野の博士)
Patanga Cordeiro
2017-06-09 18:37:59 +0000 UTC
