Japanese Phonetics Episode 13—(outdated link)
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Note: Even though many 平板 i-adjectives like 赤い are traditionally pronounced in a 平板 manner in isolation, as in aKAI, there are many following particles and words (such as し and が for particles, and です and けれど for words), that can make even the traditional recordings of these words 中高, as in aKAishi, aKAiga, and aKAidesu, aKAikeredo. It's for this reason that I suggest learners of all ages use the newer '中高 pronunciation' for the dictionary (non-conjugated form) of 平板 i-adjectives. That is to say, in most circumstances I believe it's better to go with aKAi, rather than aKAI, even though 赤い is technically a 平板 I-adjective. The one major exception to this is when a noun directly follows a 平板 i-adjective, as in 赤い車; from the research I've done, it seems that in these circumstances many people will pronounce the adjective 平板, as in aKAI KURUMA. This may be subject to speaker variation though—currently doing more research to see how younger people pronounce this and the various aforementioned combinations!
Apologies for all of the caveats and revisions; i-adjectives are particularly tricky as they're going through a big phonetic shift at the moment, and many pitch-accent resources only list the older pronunciation. I'm currently working on new versions of all the い adjectives lessons which contain more information about the aforementioned topics, as well as native recordings. Thank you for your patience—will try to get these out soon!
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The thirteenth episode of Japanese Phonetics is LIVE! In this episode I talk about the pitch-accent patterns for adjectives, specifically, I address the pitch-accent patterns for atamadaka and the very complicated heiban i-adjectives. If you have any questions or concerns don't hesitate to leave a comment below! I will respond to all questions and messages (including ones that have yet to be addressed) by this time tomorrow.
As always, thank you very much for the continued support. Hope you enjoy the lesson!
Dogen
Comments
Intonation can often affect pitch-accent to a certain degree, so that's probably what you heard. The main point that I'd like to make sure everyone knows is that it's incorrect to pronounce 良かった as yoKAHtuh, or yoKAatta with English stress accent, and that it's normally pronounced as YOkatta in Japanese. Cheers!
Dogen
2020-09-05 06:37:12 +0000 UTCI guess I have an idea where this wrong pronounciation of よかった could come from. When I was listening to one serious scientific video (...ok ok, it was an anime) I heard that initial glide in 'yo' sometimes goes slightly up. So it was like 'jOkatta'. But since よ is a single mora in Japanese it's still technically an atamadaka. Just an idea though...
Strange Guy
2020-09-04 18:07:41 +0000 UTCHi Paco, I have to apologize because I can't actually answer this question with confidence as I haven't come across definitive answers to these in my studies. I have read some resources that seem to suggest even older people say the 赤い in 赤いです as aKAi, but I unfortunately can't answer the other parts of your first question extensively here as this is a topic that requires me to do more research into the differences between older and younger speech. That said, this is something that I plan on covering in the relatively near future (い adjectives in general exhibit a lot of variation, so this has been on my radar for a while). As far as I know there are no 尾高 い adjectives, but again I'll need to do a bit more research on this subject before giving a 100% definitive answer as 平板 adjectives often exhibit somewhat odd behavior. Sorry for not being able to help out more at this time, and good luck with your future studies!
Dogen
2020-09-01 13:21:29 +0000 UTCHi Dogen, I have 2 questions. Are 赤い、赤いです and 赤い車 pronounced all identically, so for example all Heiban with older people and all Nakadaka with younger people? Or are there any differences when a Noun or a です follows? My second question is: Do Odaka i - adjectives exist? Greetings
Paco
2020-08-31 12:17:05 +0000 UTCHi Strange, I believe that's safe to assume (for i-adjectives, at least). Cheers!
Dogen
2020-08-21 03:41:51 +0000 UTCNo worries! Glad to be of service!
Dogen
2020-08-21 03:41:15 +0000 UTCHave just learned 35 heiban i-adjectives. I guess from now on I may consider any other adjective non-heiban.
Strange Guy
2020-08-20 21:58:11 +0000 UTCI realize there are maaaaany videos between where I am and where you are with new ones, but I wanted to say thank you for including bits about the generational differences. I moved to Japan and started learning the language at 30, and have always wanted to be careful to not sound much younger than I am.
J Anthony Malerich
2020-08-12 21:33:17 +0000 UTCHi Kauko, the reason some of the words, such as 甘かった and 赤かった and are nakadaka is because these are 平板 i-adjectives, and in the past form 平板 i-adjectives become 中高, as I believe that I point out in this video. The reason the non 平板 i-adjectives such as 高い are being said as taKAkatta in their past form (in the recordings that you've found) is because this is a newer, also acceptable pronunciation of these words. Please see the comment from the post above, which I've posted below for reference. I also address my recommended pronunciation of 多かった in the above video towards the beginning. Cheers! The reason that you're seeing uMAku is that this is one of the newer acceptable pronunciations of the word. The technical correct pronunciation (and the pronunciation that I was specifically taught to be correct in pitch-accent class) is Umaku, which is why I used it in this tutorial. Recently, however, many speakers will leave the downstep on the ま during certain conjugations, mainly the く and くて form it seems according to the Shinmeikai accent dictionary. NHK says that it's OK to leave the downstep on the MA in all the conjugations I've mentioned in this video (and that it's OK to pronounce all 3 mora 中高 い-adjectives in this way), but because this is the newer pronunciation I'm a bit hesitant to recommend it. I would stick with the 'becomes 頭高' rule because I find it easier, and, again, because it's more established so to speak. Hope this helps!
Dogen
2020-07-31 05:28:59 +0000 UTCHi Dōgen! I was curious about the accent in 3 mora い adjectives conjugated forms, as I have never noticed the downstep shift you mentioned. It basically makes those conjugated adjectives 頭高、right? I followed your advice and doubke checked it with forvo, using a couple of 3 mora adjectives that first came to my mind, and checked both their dictionary and past forms (which were also present on firvo, luckily). 高かった、低かった、辛かった、きつかった、甘かった、赤かった、白かった、近かった - all of these sound fairly nakadaka, just as if the 4mora+ rule applied to them 強かった、遠かった - only these two sounded as if the accent shift rule applied to them There was also 多かった which was kinda difficult to identify for me, as I am not 100% sure which of the おs is pronounced higher here. Could you explain this or point out if I hear some things wrong? Thank you for the incredible work you always do!
Kauko
2020-07-30 10:11:21 +0000 UTCHi Cachwir! Technically おいしい is indeed 平板 according to the NHK dictionary, though many speakers pronounce this word, at least in its dictionary form, as a 中高 word. It seems that 上手い also has multiple acceptable pitch-patterns, some speakers will say it as 平板, while other will say it as 中高 word. I personally treat both of the aforementioned words as 中高 い adjectives (including their various conjugations), as this is what I've found most of the speakers I've talked with do (at least for the dictionary forms, again I be technically be making mistakes by applying 中高 rules to the conjugations as well, but my intuition tells me that for these words it may be OK). The reason that you're seeing uMAku is that this is one of the newer acceptable pronunciations of the word. The technical correct pronunciation (and the pronunciation that I was specifically taught to be correct in pitch-accent class) is Umaku, which is why I used it in this tutorial. Recently, however, many speakers will leave the downstep on the ま during certain conjugations, mainly the く and くて form it seems according to the Shinmeikai accent dictionary. NHK says that it's OK to leave the downstep on the MA in all the conjugations I've mentioned in this video (and that it's OK to pronounce all 3 mora 中高 い-adjectives in this way), but because this is the newer pronunciation I'm a bit hesitant to recommend it. I would stick with the 'becomes 頭高' rule because I find it easier, and, again, because it's more established so to speak. Hope this helps!
Dogen
2020-06-16 05:13:39 +0000 UTCHello. I am quite confused. I researched the pitch pattern of 美味しい and 上手い. The first one was registered as 平板 on Wiktionary (and does sound like 平板 on Forvo). I didn't find about the second one but it does sound 平板 on Forvo as well. However, 上手く sounds like 中高 (uMAku), which doesn't respect the rules you teach in this video. Even if it was a 中高, the fact that it has 3 mora implies that it should become 頭高. How do you explain that ?
Cachwir
2020-06-15 17:39:20 +0000 UTCHi Chief. In the ろう form the downstep always occurs on the ろ, as in よかろう (yoKAROu). Cheers!
Dogen
2020-05-28 08:06:16 +0000 UTCHello, I wanted to know more about the conjugated for you skipped in this video
Master Chief
2020-05-28 07:30:55 +0000 UTCYes, partially. Only some of the conjugations of 平板 i-adjectives are 中高; others, such as 赤く and 赤さ are 平板, as explained in the video. The best way to think about it is that just '赤い' can be said as 中高, but all the conjugations of 赤い should be said as outlined in this video. Cheers!
Dogen
2020-05-06 07:27:12 +0000 UTCI see. So for 平板 い-adjectives it is the conjugated forms themselves that are 中高 due to their unique pitch-pattern. That makes sense now, thank you.
Jacob Wesson
2020-05-06 02:59:52 +0000 UTCHi Jacob. Sorry for the confusion, in this lesson I was trying to say that 赤い should be treated as 中高, but only in its dictionary form (赤い). Unfortunately, the conjugations of 赤い, such as 赤くて retain their unique pitch-accents, which are different from normal 3 mora 中高 い-adjectives. In summary: 赤い should be treated as 中高, but only in it dictionary form, the non-conjugated forms of this and other 平板 i-adjectives differ from those of standard 3 mora 中高 i-adjectives. Hope this helps!
Dogen
2020-05-06 02:26:53 +0000 UTCHi Dogen, in the previous lesson (Introduction to adjectives / い adjectives) you say that the downstep in 3 mora, 中高 い-adjectives would shift back 1 mora for common conjugations. Therefore, the downstep in 暑くて is on あ, the first mora. Then in this lesson you say that 赤い should be considered 中高, but when you conjugate it to the 赤くて form the downstep stays on か, the second mora. If 赤い is a 3 mora い-adjective, and is being treated as 中高 (instead of 平板), then shouldn't the downstep shift back 1 mora in the 赤くて form so that it is on あ, the first mora? Sorry if that was long-winded.
Jacob Wesson
2020-05-06 01:50:01 +0000 UTCHi KP, 難しい is traditionally 平板 but has become 中高 in recent years, so I imagine that is where the issue with that particular word is coming from. That said, in 難しかった the い between the sh and the k becomes devoiced, which could lead some speakers to move the downstep to the following location, so that's another possibility. That said, other speakers will bring the downstep forward, as in muZUKAshikatta, rather than shifting it backward. With aKAKATTA, I believe this is just a straight up mistake. I'm looking at two pitch-accent dictionaries right now and they are both listing aKAkatta. Cheers!
Dogen
2020-03-30 11:40:21 +0000 UTCSuzuki-kun gives me the following, which is different from unique Heiban conjugation rules mentioned in this video: • muZUKASHIKAtta • aKAKATTA Is this part of the phonetic shift, or a mistake with Suzuki? Also, it's interesting that it gave me muZUKASHIi (Nakadaka) but aKAI (Heiban). It's neither strictly following the pitch pattern given in dictionary, nor the phonetic shift.
KP
2020-03-30 08:40:26 +0000 UTC"But, This is wrong" had me cracking up, god knows why
Joseph Marsh
2020-02-04 01:49:05 +0000 UTCHi Eva, this is my own observation, but it is also discussed in many phonetic resources. There are some older people and linguists that complain, but it's really only a small number of people!
Dogen
2019-12-26 07:48:23 +0000 UTCI found it really interesting to hear that the pitch accents are undergoing a transformation and that they are different in younger speakers. Is this your own observation or also discussed in the pitch accent resources aou are using? Is there any discourse about older speakers/linguists complaining how "young people these days are speaking all wrong" or something like that?
Eva Sakamoto
2019-12-26 03:56:04 +0000 UTCHi Joel! I still recommend going with 中高—I'm 31 and I use it without any reservations. Hope this helps!
Dogen
2019-06-13 13:46:30 +0000 UTCHey Dogen, quick question here! You said that you would suggest going with 中高 especially if you are young. I'll be about 27 when I get to Japan, and I don't want to come off like I'm trying to sound like a 20-year-old kid when I talk. Would you still suggest I go with 中高 or should I stick with the correct pitch-accent? P.S. Really fantastic series. I'd gladly pay more than $10/month for it.
Joel Mitchell
2019-06-13 02:52:26 +0000 UTCHi Samantha. Indeed, younger speakers almost always say 平板 adjectives with four or more mora as 中高!
Dogen
2019-03-10 06:19:45 +0000 UTCYes! I noticed my friends who are (young) native speakers say 難しい as 中高.
Samantha Hoh
2019-03-08 21:30:24 +0000 UTCHi Lina! That one was huge for me too ^^ Glad to hear your studies are still going well!
Dogen
2019-03-06 02:26:27 +0000 UTCWow, the 良かった thing was a revelation. We do tend to follow the わかった pitch pattern in it, which is wrong. Didn't know that!
Lina Pirogova
2019-03-03 13:39:41 +0000 UTCHi Linda, It really depends—not all younger speakers use 中高, and not all speakers use 平板. That said I would say that the majority of the people who do use 中高 are younger; I personally have been able to observe the phenomenon countless times in everyday conversation :) Does this answer your question?
Dogen
2017-07-05 10:05:46 +0000 UTCHi Dogen, This is a questions regarding the Heiban i-adjectives that are going through a phonetic transition right now: Can you hear the difference between older and younger speakers when listening out for it? Cheers! Linda
Kotori
2017-07-05 09:29:41 +0000 UTCHey guys, thank you very much for the great questions. I'll try to answer both below: Patrick: Totally see where you are coming from. You are correct—in a way. Often times the pitch doesn't change to an audible degree in the type of words you've described. That being said, it's dangerous to imagine the first two mora at the same pitch because: Often times a speakers emotions will affect pitch-accent, resulting in a clear difference between the first two syllables. You're not hearing much of a change when I do it in my lessons (or when other natives do it in textbooks) most likely because we're delivering the words in a very technical (emotionless) setting. However, if I wanted to emphasize the word 'more' (多く） in the following sentence, しかし多くの人はいきませんでした I would do this by emphasizing the first mora of the word, resulting in a louder initial お that also has a slightly higher pitch-accent. In this type of situation (when emotion is involved) it's easier to hear the difference between the pitch of the first two mora. Try listening for these words in more heated conversations and I imagine you'll hear it ^^ Really fantastic question. Shotaro: Similar answer—though there are situations in which there is no audible rise in pitch, it's dangerous to think of it this way as it can often result in a very foreign like 'stress-accent' pronunciation. In other words, if you adopt the stance of 'there isn't an audible change', you may begin to fall back on this idea too often, which can be very dangerous. Even if the pitch-rise isn't audible, I would encourage you to continue to try and actively listen for it, as making the effort is what improves your phonetic awareness in the long run. Stay hungry! ^^ another great question!
Dogen
2017-03-30 13:37:46 +0000 UTCHi Dogen. I have a question about the basic pitch accent rules as applied to words that start with a two mora long vowel, taking some of the words in this lesson as an example. When the pitch is initially rising in a word like 「動物」(どうぶつ), one can usually hear a rise in the long vowel. But when there is supposed to be an initial downstep, it does not seem as clear. Take as an example the three mora 「多く」(おおく). The first mora is clearly high and the third mora is clearly low. How about the second mora? I listen carefully to your recording and recordings of other native japanese speakers, and the actual pitch seems about constant for the duration of the whole long vowel, that is, for the first two moras, before dropping for the third mora. Is it really going down in the middle of the long vowel and I am not hearing it?
Patrick R
2017-03-29 03:59:39 +0000 UTC
