Ask Me Anything About the Whole Thing

I don't think so, I'm still interested in it

Peter Olson

How does Andrew feel now? Ashamed? Aggrieved? Apologetic? (I don't really care, just curious)

Simon Crowley

Did this episode ever happen?

Kait from Seattle

When were the questions answered? I can’t find an episode that mentions this

Jeanie Jean Jean

Is a "tell-all" (for lack of a better phrase coming to mind) still in the works or have y'all slowed down on that?

Kris Rhodes

I am totally behind the loop! Guess cover I would love transcript and explanations of what's been happening; write that book!

Marsha Woerner

To respond to another part of your question (b/c I don't think Thomas will mind, but prob wouldn't share himself out of respect for confidences): I did reach out to Thomas after the news broke to let him know I had also had issues with Andrew. Thomas was very responsive and kind. Months earlier I had shared/recorded a very personal story for a future OA ep about an abortion I had at 16 following a sexual assault, my awful experience at a pregnancy crisis center I accidentally stumbled into, and my need to get a judicial bypass and stand up for myself in court to obtain an abortion without parental consent. At the time: I felt completely comfortable/good about getting my story out there post-Dobbs. When Andrew took over the finances, I panicked a bit about the audio. I kept picturing Andrew listening to it, or putting it up as part of a compilation for like a Patreon bonus or something (my paranoia, I don't know there was ever any threat of this happening). But the thought of him benefitting financially in any from that story made me feel pretty sick. Thomas heard me out and gave me the reassurances I needed despite everything going on in his own life at the moment, and I am very grateful for that. Happy to be back as a patron.

Katie Herrmann

Only speaking from my own experience (I would describe Andrew's behavior during our limited interactions as "shitty," but in no way illegal). His apology on the podcast was awful. Honestly - I don't know who vetted it (legal or PR) - but someone made a very bad call there. I did contact him about a year ago to make it clear his communications with me were disrespectful and inappropriate and explain how that affected me. I did not receive a response or an apology, but didn't really expect one either. As a lawyer: I get not wanting to own up to any kind of fault. As a person: Kind of sucks.

Katie Herrmann

1) The California bar isn't all that hard, it's that the qualification to take it is lower so more people fail. 2) I'd laugh if PAT failed it, but his many faults don't include being dumb or unwilling to prepare.

Gmork

I generally liked him but sometimes I would get uncomfortable about the way he talked about his relationship with alcohol, and the way he avoided outright agreeing with some strong feminist statements made by others on the show. At the time it was a little "well nobody's perfect" type thing but afterwards it made terrible sense.

Irene Wendy Wode author of The Grafting Mark, a queer sci fi survival adventure, now querying

I unsubscribed and stopped listening after PAT’s “apology”. So glad to be back.

Margot Bauman

He always sounded a bit arrogant to me, but no more so than other people I’ve known with advanced degrees that think the letters after their name make them the smartest person in the room. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Margot Bauman

Thank you for providing as much transparency as possible about this situation. I hope you, Lydia and the rest of your family are doing better and are able to get back time to yourself. My question is this: has anyone who distanced themselves from you during this situation reached back to you since the settlement? If people have what have those interactions been like generally? No names need to be provided unless you have the ok to provide them.

Brit

The settlement related to a lawsuit that Thomas brought against Andrew for all the things he was doing. It included intentional infliction of emotional distress as one of the causes of action (from memory). Now that that case has been dismissed with prejudice none of the parties can bring the matter to court again.

Sam Johnson

What have you learned, personally, that will help with the effort to spot and address problematic behavior in other podcasters/creators who share your audience?

Katie Herrmann

Thank you.

Amigo Renaldo

Hey Thomas! Hope you’re well and I’m very glad everything worked out legally! I’m curious do you and Lydia plan on counter-suing Andrew for everything he put you and your family through? Would it be worth it or would it result in too much money in the hole? Thanks for the podcasts and I hope you and your family find some time to relax!

ForgottenWisdom

"Mr. Torrez's insisting that he is not attracted to Mr. Smith and therefore could not have have engaged in unwanted touching reeks..." - I mean, what it reeks of is Trump talking about E. Jean Carrol... you should have made a joke about him mistaking you for his wife during deposition.

Timothy High

You have mentioned that the opposing side made some disastrous moves, likely at the advice (or misinformation) of PAT. Was there any legal move that really shocked you or your attorneys? Any moments where the judge really pushed back on the bullshit?

Ding Dong, the Pest is Gone

One last question! Do you know and are you good with Alison Gill? She had the advantage of owning her own podcast free and clear, and she didn't say anything after the change. Wondering if you've ever talked and commiserated, or might ever do some sort of collab.

The 40-Year-Old 1L

Mind blown 🤯 all these years I had no idea

David Larsen

I would be interested in a traditional OA deep dive on the case, with listener T. Smith (who had no involvement in the case) - not sure that is possible

Simon Crowley

My burning question is how far in advance did you prepare those amazing intro quotes you debuted when you got the show back 😂? Seriously though glad everything is resolved and hope you and Lydia are doing a lot better now.

Andrew W

California does not do reciprocity

Jeanie Jean Jean

Also wondering if Smiths now have a $500K hole to dig out of (legal fees). Man, I hope settlement included some relief

Patrick Herlihy

That is known, he stepped back right around when OA went to 4 episodes.

Crystal

@Andrea I did see that one. Well, the L&C podcast lists him as "producer" at the end of the one episode I checked out. But I am wondering if he had a similar position with OA.

Apprentice57

I am also interested in these questions. I'll add, as a specific part of what generally happened with the Foundation: who is currently on the board?

Apprentice57

Most states have a reciprocity agreement: as long as your license has been active and in good standing for a certain number of years, you don’t have to take the bar. You still have to pay all the costs and pass a character/fitness review, but those are mostly pro forma.

Milo Meadsong is on to the post-conviction process, now that his cert. petition was denied

What happened with the Opening Arguments Foundation, LLC? Where did funds that were donated end up (with respect to the reproductive rights fundraiser, but also monthly donations that were solicited from listeners)? Any update on the Creator Accountability Network?

Katie Herrmann

She definitely got a host upgrade too.... an actual Justice Department expert rather than a small-time contract lawyer.

Kristen Bianca

Also the back catalogue and other copyrighted IP such as their inside jokes and catch phrases, regular segments including T3BE, Yodel Mountain, Andrew Was Wrong, etc.

Congress- the opposite of PROgress

#LeakTheLetter 😆

Congress- the opposite of PROgress

I hope this wasn't too awful for his kid.

Stormy Decisis says visit sharebannedbooks.com

How did you get the news you had won? Do anything to celebrate? How 'knife edge' did it feel prior to the ruling? Has anyone commented how mind-blowingly funny and spicey your initial intro quotes were when you got the podcast back - did that have any risk associated with it in terms of the decision on ownership?! I wish you the very best for your continuation and I hope the memory fades soon. LOVE the 1000+ episodes, absolutely the best OA there has been :))))))

oh good what luck

Was the decision to leave Philosophers in Space impacted by this whole situation with PAT, or was it an unrelated move?

Amigo Renaldo

He said some things on some old episodes that made me think he and his wife are poly or at least open. But also, leaving your spouse out of the conversation is a classic "creepy poly guy" dick move.

IT Coyote

In what circles is it accepted to touch people without consent and forcibly initiate intimacy?

Audrey Arnett

Did you have any conversations with Aaron Rabinowitz in the immediate aftermath or since? I know you have mentioned CAN recently and going through their credential process. Has Rabinowitz been involved in that process at all and what has that process been like? Maybe this would be better asked later on, but do you think they are making any difference now or in the future could? Or is this just a good guy badge for podcasters?

carp demon

Oooh nice speculation -- I can TOTALLY see him going to the right, since it all seems to be performative for him anyway!

Big Easy Blasphemy

I was baffled too, and when I politely asked about it, she just blocked me.

Big Easy Blasphemy

And she's still podcasting with him on her new Law & Chaos show.

Big Easy Blasphemy

OMG yes this could be a totally riveting book!

Big Easy Blasphemy

I'd still like to know what he did that rose to the level of putting him in the initial complaint. He always seemed decent in his Mormon stuff, but of course, just listening to podcasts doesn't tell you who someone really is as a person... was he always a POS or did he turn at some point?

Big Easy Blasphemy

Yes, exactly. Have seen the same. Was just curious what the story was with the spouse.

BlueBomber

Thought of another. If I remember correctly, you had one set of lawyers at first and then switched to different ones? What was the process of choosing lawyers for this like?

can I get a CHEE-HOOOOO

At the time it very much seemed like PAT just started changing passwords. And without reciepts (i.e. a business contract) as proof that OA was stolen, possession really was 9/10 of the law

Jason Coughenour

Along the same lines, the first episode without you (Thomas) was titled, "Oh no, the Privilege is MINE!" I'm guessing you agree the this was a dig against you as a lot of people in the community saw. Was this discussed behind the scenes/come up in discovery?

Aegis Rend

It seemed very odd that he seemed to hide it when he so regularly spoke of Maryland. There was a point where I could recite his boilerplate "Opening Arguments media..... Townsend Maryland" The fact that he picked up and changed coasts and was completely silent on it is still befuddling.

Jason Coughenour

Likely cause she had a business contract that allowed her to do so based on a morals clause or similar, and didn't have to go through the year+ of hell that Thomas and Lydia did. But she did it almost immediately after the allegations came out.

Jason Coughenour

I struggled with the same thing. When the allegations first came out, they weren't great, but seemed like something that could be rehabilitated. Not everyone that does some bad things should be thrown out as irredeemable in my book. If you don't have a path back it's got to be a lot harder to improve yourself with no possibility of forgiveness. All of that went out the window with the coup of course. Looking back, the only thing that stood out to me is when PAT posted audio from presentations or talks that he did, he referred to OA as "my podcast". It gave a kind of 'I'm the host and Thomas is my sidekick' kind of vibe. I'm kind of embarrassed that I held on to my patronage probably longer than I should have partly from not wanting to believe it, and partly hoping that PAT might continue with the monthly Q&A. Cause oh did I have questions. (sorry Thomas) It pains me to think of how much I believed that PAT was genuine.

Jason Coughenour

Ben Bayliss, I think you're right about the beginning of the "turn" - and in addition to the power/fame dynamic, I'd say (as someone almost exactly his age) the effect of residual GenX sexual mores probably didn't help. Don't get me wrong: we Olds are responsible for evolving with the times. But it may help people understand if they reflect we were in college when campus educational programs were just starting to talk about "date rape" being a thing. Consent has evolved a LOT since we were kids.

Christine M

Did patron pledge dollars get split between you and Captain Dickcheese, Esq.? Held and managed by the receiver pending results of the trial? I doubt he was able to just have full access to funds while fighting you in court but am unsure of what happened there and was unsure if I should pause my subscription so as not to enrich him or keep it as is in hopes that the moneys would be there waiting for you upon your inevitable victory?

I'm fast at sex!

What sorts of bar exam questions could you absolutely, instantly nail as a result of this ordeal? How has this changed your interest in law thingies? (clearly you aren't like, sick of law, but has it changed how you engage with legal proceedings, now having been in one?)

can I get a CHEE-HOOOOO

I'm really curious about this. I haven't practiced law in 23 years, and I'd still take pains to ensure I had a contract with a business partner, for which they had advice of independent counsel. It feels like it's in the same zone as saying "this isn't legal advice and doesn't create an attorney-client relationship" when talking casually about legal matters.

Christine M

Gonna blow your mind: I saw it written once and it's actually Konrad with a "K"!!!

Dusty Lee

This is absolutely not true.

Opening Arguments

Is there anything that you're excited to talk about, but no one has asked yet?

Michael Nelson

I noticed that too. Initially I assumed it was just that she didn’t want to be involved/ named, but in hindsight it could be he was painting a picture of himself as a single dad on air (subconsciously or purposely). I’ve seen serial cheaters do that before.

Molly Jane Cyr

Bonus: What would Conrad Michaels' take on all this be??

Timothy High

Did you notice a certain pattern to the people that supported you vs. Andrew? e.g. Did you lose certain lawyer types when you took back over the show? What about new patrons during the Andrew phase - are they sticking around? Anyone that disappointed you in particular?

Timothy High

Can confirm the roastiness of the original draft.

Lydia Smith

I'll go one further... do you think Andrew listens to OA now??

Timothy High

but can you describe them from memory?

Garry Myers

I was irked to see her there as well but my assumption is that the legal eagle guy himself isn't aligning with a side, and instead just doesn't really know or care much about the dispute, same as 99.999 percent of people in the world.

Kris Rhodes

Seen a lot of eleat school types like Andrew. It is a very sharp elbowed, go for it atmosphere that assumes everyone is a peer and has what it takes to push back firmly and strongly. In the end, who knows? I suspect it was behaviour that would have been accepted in some circles but not in others. At the end of the day some of his friends (Thomas and others) were aware of the issues and for whatever reason did not feel able to challenge him on it. There is more than enough lessons to go around.

Robert (on Patrion) Mortimer

When is the GAM patreon page going to have a collection of Thomas Smith episodes? Cara has one despite her role in 9/11.

Gmork

I'd boil it down as: 1) truth can be hard to definitively prove in a legal context; and 2) even if you can eventually prove it, the cost and effort of doing so can be as bad or worse than the damages for losing the suit.

Gmork

It was a weird attempt to deflect from Andrew's unwelcome advance on Thomas, as if the advance couldn't have been unwelcome if Thomas were bi. Very strange, very gross.

Gmork

I've heard Eli's side of it in the context of what victims allowed him to share. It sounds plausible to me, but I recognize I'm hearing it from a self-interested source.

Gmork

That was really the moment that I realized Andrew was the bad guy in the OA dispute. When the allegations were flying, I didn't know what to believe, but when Andrew released that misleading bank statement, it was pretty clear he wasn't credible. As a lawyer, that crosses the line from subjective characterization of facts to abject lying.

Gmork

I'm a liability claims handler for an insurance company and I have to talk a lot of our customers off that ledge. They're intelligent enough to know that it would be stupid to go to trial, but so frustrated at the idea of settling and letting a bad actor benefit.

Gmork

I always thought he had a great voice, but that's ruined for me now that I associate it with the creepy person he is.

Gmork

Daniel Radcliffe? Tom Cruz as Andrew, but in full Les Grossman makeup.

Gmork

Thar seemed like such a weird "accusation" in the context. Whether Thomas were bi or had fucked Eli, it's hard to imagine a court or much of the audience really caring unless he was hurting Lydia.

Gmork

I don't know anything about her beyond her appearances on the show but I just assumed she was hitching her wagon to the one she thought was going to come out on top. She took the opportunity to be a co-host of a popular podcast, and who knows what PAT promised her (especially given the questionable way his business relationship was set up with Thomas). As someone who was a fan of the show before but not at all a community "insider", it seems like there were several people who saw the blowup primarily as an opportunity for themselves.

Zachary Robinson

I for one am READY to hear Lydia's pent up rage. Given that I've mostly just heard her as the voice of the intro/outro and recently the transcript reads, it'd be nice to get her perspective as well, and let her cut loose. (I mean, as long as there's no risk of a subsequent lawsuit.)

Philly Basement Bar is back open, and isn't taking this shit lying down.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind a tick-tock of what went on behind the scenes with respect to this. Although it may just be as simple as "Yeah, he said that, and then two days later I was locked out of the account and as baffled as everyone else."

Philly Basement Bar is back open, and isn't taking this shit lying down.

He’s the editor of Law & Chaos now.

Andrea Singletary

Kudos, then, it was a beautiful paragraph. I'm copying it here for posterity: "Mr. Torrez's insisting that he is not attracted to Mr. Smith and therefore could not have have engaged in unwanted touching reeks of the kind of outdated views that infest Mr. Torrez's behavior and attitudes. Mr. Smith is not, in fact, bisexual, and would probably identify as heteroflexible, if asked. But even so, what is the logical relation of Mr. Smith's sexuality to unwanted touching? If Mr. Torrez had touched a woman in a way she didn't like, as he is alleged to have done, would his defense be that he "didn't even know she was heterosexual?" Unwanted touch is unwanted touch, and is more often about the exercise of power than about sexuality. Mr. Torrez's conception of masculinity and sexuality is apparently as outdated as his understanding of consent. As an attorney and legal expert, Mr. Torrez surely knows what conduct constitutes sexual harassment, which makes his actions-and outdated excuses for them-that much more problematic."

Apprentice57

*this* Trump trial is only going to happen once ;-)

Iain Goldfinch

I know ive done some creepy things in retrospect. I do what i can to make it up to those people best i can. Nothing anywhere near what Andrews being accused of but i really suck at social ques so i can understand how it started. I dont get his response, and reaction. I do everything i can to do the opposite. I try not to think about how i could be like that if i didnt put considerable effort into not being like that

The Dinosaur Dave, Lego Streamer

Do you think he knew what he was doing was wrong from the get-go, or was he truly oblivious, at least at first? I know the saying that no one thinks of themselves as a villain, but I find that hard to imagine in this case, at least by the time people were coming forward with accusations. Another similar question: do you think he really sees himself as a “progressive” person, ally of women and LGBT+ community, etc. or is that all part of an on-air personality that he created? Okay, one more part to this question: do you think he’d ever switch sides (so to speak) and start working with or for right-wingers?

NightOwl1090

Also don’t worry about sounding bitter. I’m just glad to hear you able to speak about it all. Plus I payed way more attention to this case than a sane person would so I’m enjoying seeing you stand up for yourself because people had such ridiculous things to say about you. (I spent too much time on Reddit, rookie mistake)

Audrey Arnett

I found it fucking hilarious so I’m glad to know the other letter exists even if I’ll never see it lol

Audrey Arnett

Glad you asked. I wrote that letter and thought that line was funny as hell. I think I said “Mr smith is not, in fact, bisexual. If pressed, he’d probably identify as heteroflexible.” I love how everyone is so convinced I’m an idiot that when that letter went public, everyone was like “wow, Thomas found a lawyer who really hates Andrew…” lol alright that sounded a little bitter. I guess what I mean is, I think most people underestimate me quite a bit. I was really proud of that letter and didn’t get to tell anyone I wrote it. Obviously lawyers plopped in a few tweaks for law purposes but it was almost entirely from an original letter I wrote that was much longer and even more roasty.

Opening Arguments

I completely understand if you don’t want to answer this, but I’ve been so curious for your perspective ever since it happened. Andrew seemingly misunderstood your accusation as revealing a sexual relationship between you and Eli. One of the strangest moments watching this from the sidelines was reading “Mr Smith is in fact not bisexual” in a legal letter. What was that like?

Audrey Arnett

Who plays you in the Netflix limited series?

Sam Johnson

While this has been a terrible stressful thing to go through, are there any silver linings? Things that have happened since, or unexpected support you've received that go some way to offsetting all the negatives.

Sam Johnson

I most want to hear this story in whatever way YOU are best served sharing it with us. This is your story. A deep dive into the legal side of things could be insightful and perhaps appropriate given this is, after all, a legal podcast. Kinda like how the WWE is really good at making documentaries about itself, imagining a mini-series like that about OA's own legal journey. Maybe inject a bit of humor through the rage. ADHD and ASD are super close cousins re: hyperfocus...and hitting burnout, sometimes suddenly and without warning. Please take care of yourself. Tell your story in your own time. Take time for yourself as you're able. It's okay to tell people to leave you alone for a few minutes. Hyperfocusing on trauma...how could this NOT have been? for you...feels weirdly good/productive/soothing, but it can flip on you really fast. Just some unsolicited advice from another nerdy neurodivergent person. Seriously, you and Lydia and Matt are amazing and I AM SO HAPPY to have this show back in my feed! That theme song is soul-affirming. OA is baaaaaaack.

Minnow & blossom

You obviously support the CAN effort. It's something I only have a vague idea about how they will help creators. How do you see them helping creators like you? Hypothetically if they had existed before, what parts of your experience might have been different? Is there something that you hope they could or would offer in the future?

Sam Johnson

I tried to only vote for the questions that I wanted to hear. But that turned out to be basically all of them. How has this experience changed your view of the legal system? And is there any non-obvious parts (i.e. not just the $$$) that you wish were different?

Sam Johnson

Respect for you respect for the pod. As a patron I would most like regular episodes covering the trump trial. I don’t need the theatrical stuff with the transcripts if that is proving to be too much to handle, whether for personal reasons or otherwise. The trump trial is only going to happen once and I rely on OA to get my fix. Would rather scrap the theatrics and get the thrice weekly commentary than have it late.

Rich Gilliland

AT ... actually went there? o.o Every time I think this guy couldn't be more of a sleazebag. I wonder if he actually believes in social justice and being an ally, or if that's just virtue signaling. I'm queer so hearing that about AT reeeally thickens the slime for me. Was already sticky sludge.

Minnow & blossom

While I think the move happened before everything came out, I do wonder how the new, very expensive house in CA factored into P.Arsehole's thinking when faced with the potential loss of (I'm guessing) his main income source.

Sam Johnson

Have you considered bringing OA into a conglomerate with PIAT?

Eric-John C Tate

And we all know, Andrew would never make a bad argument in court! /s

Apprentice57

> What had Andrew specifically said to you that he agreed he would do? This kind of got buried in the replies but I think it's a great question & wanted to shout it out. Andrew's Non-Apology Apology *seemed to* reference the same thing, that he would work to improve himself, but there were no specifics and it was never referenced on-air again AFAIK

Corrigible (OA Live Show New Orleans)

But Andrew said in court that you are Thomas's Reddit alt! Apprentice57, shouldn't you know the answer to this already? /s

Corrigible (OA Live Show New Orleans)

In the outro to the May 6th episode, Matt congratulated Thomas as being the sole owner of OA, so that's already answered. I do hope Matt is a permanent co-host though; he's been fantastic!

Corrigible (OA Live Show New Orleans)

Thomas, looking back in 20/20 hindsight, any advice on how people can be better allies? I know you were pretty constrained in what you could do about Andrew before things blew up, so to be clear I'm not asking what you would change if you could ... more, I'm asking about any advice you've picked up in going through this whole mess.

Corrigible (OA Live Show New Orleans)

Thomas, have you and Andrew spoken/written to each other directly since the day he stole the show from you? If so, anything interesting in the things he said?

Corrigible (OA Live Show New Orleans)

Did you HAVE to?

Jeff Wilson

[grabs popcorn bucket and leans forward]

Jeff Wilson

I specifically want to do an entire episode on why this saying is fundamentally misleading and we should stop using it.

Opening Arguments

"Truth is an absolute defense for libel"

Jeff Wilson

One more thing: I know Andrew had a (two-faced) apology on one of those episodes in early ‘23. Has he done anything else to address his actions toward any of the victims? He also lost his position with AA, was he held to account in any other way? Without naming them, Thomas have you had interactions with other victims since OA blew up? Do you know if he has been held to account by any lawsuit or other means? Some of this may be in the previous comments, but I didn’t see it. I know we are all very interested in the OA aspect, but his (alleged) abuse was wider-ranging, and I would love to hear there’s a possibility of some means of making his other victims whole.

Colbin Erdahl

Wtf is up with Liz Dye??? I had been a reader of hers at Above the Law and was psyched whenever she was on OA before The Bad Things™️ started happening and then she seemingly went all in for PAT. I was/am still baffled. When I tweeted at her generally flabbergasted way back at the beginning when she picked PAT in this whole mess, she DM’d me saying she couldn’t say anything bc of the lawsuit. Do you have ANY insight on that whole thing? Particularly since she recorded that like one episode with you right after everything came out? So bizarre.

Julie P.

It could just be that she didn't want to be part of the fame vortex for privacy reasons. That would be a neutral reason to elide her from discussion

ADHDProgrammer

I think there is a thing with fame and power dynamics. Fame is a form of informal soft power. It does not come packaged in formalisms like codes of conduct, positions of trust and HR Departments. As such, I don't think it's always visible to the holder. We learn in youth 'how hard' you can try when you try to flirt or pick someone up. Eventually you try too hard and get negative feedback. In this way we self calibrate. When you get famous, if you try with the same *effort*, it has much more *effect*. When people are suddenly famous, some of them don't re-calibrate appropriately. They don't realize that the lack of 'no' signals is because people fear their power, and they think they are still with in bounds. I don't know how much of this was at play here, but I think at least some of it was. This is not to excuse him. I don't know what the solution to this is. Maybe the new creator accountability thing is part of it. Maybe we need some formal thing akin to media training for the newly and suddenly famous.

ADHDProgrammer

How long after the creation of the podcast did you first have a feeling that AT was a problem? As someone who was a listener from the beginning, I'm just curious about when along the way this alternate history branched off.

Garry Myers

Yeah, I'd love to hear the timeline on that. Especially given that the NDA was such a major point of contention - what was involved in the settlement and coming next int he litigation that he settled now?

The 40-Year-Old 1L

I would also like to here from her again, if everyone is still friends. I found her snark and analysis sharp and her accent pleasant.

ADHDProgrammer

I seem to recall an episode where Andrew specifically discussed the importance of having a written agreement before you start doing business, because once something happens it's too late to negotiate with a veil of ignorance. If I read the timeline right, this episode happened while Andrew was *currently* ghosting Thomas on the issue of a written contract. I am curious if that was a weird conversation to edit, and if anything juicy was left on the cutting room floor?

ADHDProgrammer

I personally think family members who weren't directly involved or who haven't chosen to enter the public discussion should be left out of this...

Kevin Duff

What would have happened hadyou acted when he advanced toward you, considering how it all ended up, using your 20/20 hindsight, of course.

MamaG

Yeah, defamation and I am not allowed to share discovered documents. They have to be destroyed, normal settlement thing I guess.

Opening Arguments

I've always wondered about AT's wife. On air he acted like he was single, even going out of his way to talk about "his" trip to send his son off to college, completely deleting the spouse from the picture. I assumed he was divorced, and was shocked to hear he was married. What's up with that? Seems like he deleted the spouse to make opportunities to meet other women, but I don't know anything about it.

BlueBomber

What the heck happened between the “Andrew is going to take some time off, seek therapy” or whatever that promise was to him taking over? Was there any discussion that lead up to that (sent him off the deep end) or was it as sudden for you as it was for us? For me it was kind of a ‘well, this all sucks, I wonder what he could do that would repair this situation’ to getting a panicked episode from you within like a few days.

Richard Stifle

Omg! If I didnt know you were ADHD before i would now, you sound just like me wanting to do it allllll but having all the restraints of time, physics, energy etc. Thank you for all your hard works and sharing your talents with us. Happy with whatever youd like to share and however it plays out- whatever helps in your process.🙃💜 Edit: Also, since the takeover theres one thing ive struggled with is finding out (until now) what happened. I knew the neighborhood, but i would look up stuff there was SO much Inside baseball information (so many people have followed Thomas for so long) that they were talking about people, places, things that i didnt have time/energy etc to rabbit hole, that i’d get lost. Alllllll that to say- please include some basics when talking about the older issues- idk maybe a glossary or something???? OR just keep in mind if you’re having to go OA-adjacent or OA-OG? TY

Reese

I did feel that way as well on his interactions with Mueller She Wrote, like… not sure how to describe it, but it never sat well with me

Alex Recuenco

I didn’t listen to many of them but holy hell that audio hurt my ears

Jason Thompson

That last is the important bit IMO.

Guy Chapman, the Solutions Archaeologist

Sorry, I meant "Teresa" gave us that answer on behalf of Morgan. Bad Typo all! To knowledge, I haven't seen any commentary from Morgan on the scandal except literally in the first 12 hours (from when nobody knew all the accusations yet). Morgan has seemingly kept being friends with Teresa based on social media posts since. But OTOH she quit being part of Torrez's sole led OA immediately, and then left Torrez's law firm when she could. I assume Thomas knows more; for now while it doesn't seem like she's friendly with Thomas, she doesn't seem a fan of Torrez either.

Apprentice57

I think the court shares anything filed with them, but that wouldn't include, for instance, things shared between the parties during discovery.

Apprentice57

There is not a single question in this thread that I would NOT like to hear the answer to. I have the time to listen if you have the time to record. Love listening to you, love this outcome.

Simon Crowley

Can we get a timeline of problematic behavior? I want to go back and listen to some old episodes (eg Stormy Daniels given this week’s trial) and I’d feel better if there was a period of innocence for very early episodes versus later episodes from a definitely problematic era.

David Larsen

That was when I first started listening! And pretty much every episode since then except for my year long break after Feb 2023. I think a lot of us joined after Stormy Daniels is a Legal Genius (OA154).

David Larsen

What is the likelihood that the PR agency that Andrew hired astroturfed places of discussion such as Reddit and Facebook? How much of an impact do you think that would or wouldn't have had regarding public perception of the events? did anything about this come up during arguments?

Kitsunelaine

Is it OK to criticise PAT for having a voice like a creepy clown horn?

Iain Goldfinch

I'd like to know if Matt is permanently part of the show as well and if so whether that's as a contractor or if you're thinking of making him a co-owner or some other arrangement. i really enjoy Matt (and Casey's involvement) so I hope he sticks around whatever business relationship you have with him. I'd also like to hear from other lawyers from time to time but I'm happy for Matt to be involved in every/most podcast. He's great and you two together make a great team.

Kaetrin Allen

All of the above! Maybe do a top 5?

Kaetrin Allen

Yes, this is my main question - what were the terms of the settlement? Did you get custody and ownership of OA and the lawsuit was just discontinued and the parties walked away each bearing their own costs? Did you have to pay AT anything for it (I'm sorry I think you may have said you didn't but I can't recall)? Did he pay you anything for the damage he caused or is having OA the revenue it can generate compensation in the legal sense? I'm super curious about what the settlement terms were. As a follow up - how did the settlement come about - did AT suggest it?

Kaetrin Allen

Oh, is there any extent to which ADHD hyperfocus was ever a superpower during this ordeal?

Iain Goldfinch

Hi Thomas - is there anything you regret personally about the way things went down those first few days? If you had your time again…

Iain Goldfinch

oh, sad :(

Kaetrin Allen

100% - as much as we'd all like to know as much as you're inclined to share Thomas I wouldn't put it past that guy to sue you just to mess with you because he can. I know you didn't sign an NDA (and good on you for that) and I know that opinion is not defamatory but there may be somethings you'd be better off not saying publicly. As far as I'm concerned his reputation cannot be further trashed than it already is but he's the type of guy to sue so please protect yourself!

Kaetrin Allen

I’m not sure people are ready for how much pent up rage Lydia has over this. However, she needs to consult Matt’s anger lessons guy because she won’t sound 1% as angry as she feels.

Opening Arguments

Not that it relates to sleaze-level at all but I always thought it was super weird that when advertising GAM AT would say - as a highlight - that he'd swear. Like, I'm supposed to tune in to hear him swear? Weird. At the time I put it down to a quirk and maybe it was just that. I don't miss him though - swearing or not. Not a tiny bit.

Kaetrin Allen

I'd be interested in seeing at least a sample of the emails between the 3 company managers as well. Provided that Yvette wouldn't mind them being discussed in the public sphere, of course

Apprentice57

Great question. Iirc they had only just done the episode about Activision Blizzard and the gross behavior going on there... My guess is that he's just an awkward nerdy guy (I mean, Harvard lawyer) who got way too big for his boots, suddenly becoming "Internet famous" with "fans" and completely fucked up based on a power dynamic he was too wrapped up in himself to notice was problematic. What came after it all emerged though just seems like the most awful self preservation tactics, refusing to take responsibility for any of it.

Ben Bayliss

Stormy Daniels is a Legal Genius was an absolutely landmark episode. My memory is terrible but it was all over Reddit and pretty sure that's actually how I heard about the Pod.

Ben Bayliss

In regards to you not having a written contract, I remember how he had said on the podcast that it was a 50/50 split; was that something he volunteered, or did you pressure or manoeuvre him into saying it so you'd at least have your butt partly covered that way?

Graydon Armstrong

I definitely plan to share my experience of this whole thing. ❤️

Lydia Smith

Yeah, that moment when PAT tried to throw Thomas under a homophobic bus with suggestions about what Thomas and Eli got up to was so slimy, it told me all I needed to know.

Graydon Armstrong

Lindsey SIO was the best version of SIO

Matthew Williams

The thing is, I think Andrew always was off the deep end. He just had never been exposed publicly before. Just look at the way he preyed on his victims; it was manipulative, deceitful, and pre-medatated. Short of Andrew being a different person (in which case, we wouldn't be here in the first place), I don't see how it could have gone any other way.

Michael Morrisson

What restrictions are you operating under now, that you have no NDA and no open legal cases? Are you mainly concerned about protecting yourself from defamation suits?

Michael Morrisson

What do *you* want to explain the most? The things I really want to know are probably unknowable--the hypotheticals, the "what if" questions that weigh on all of us after trauma happens.

April Poff

I think the Trump trial transcript highlights are too important not to cover. There'll always be law stuff happening, but not so much with such an impact on the future of the country, and hearing transcripts read gives me a much better sense of things than I'm getting from hearing biased reporting. Like, can I really trust something that says he's farting in court? Not sure about that. But I can trust transcripts.

Graydon Armstrong

this one might be a deep cut… but i remember an episode way back when, in the old times, when you and PAT were talking about the intro & outro music, and lydia’s quote saying “used with permission.” PAT explained that legally it means the music is yours, not OA’s, and if you say stop using it — it’s done. so my question is, how would you rate getting to revoke permission to use the music? was it more of a “yawn, take that, PAT” or did you have to clean your pants up afterwards?

Every night before bed I enjoy a policy wank

Also, I would like to hear from Lydia about how she personally felt as you were all going through this nightmare as a family. I don't remember the timeline of when you came into the SeriouslyWoke-iverse Lydia, but how did you personally cope with all that work and also going through the PAT-shitshow?

Cicada's sing to hide existential dread at their short lives

The thing that always bugged me about AT is that he would always talking so lovingly about his son and never once mentioned his wife.

Matthew Williams

I'm not OP, but for my part, I'd be interested in the worst thing he did in terms of going full mask-off once the article came out. The level of obvious predatory manipulation he was capable of truly took me by surprise.

Michael Morrisson

Watch out Lydia! Thomas might make you read all the Court transcripts in your recording cupboard and make it a 30 hour podcast! :)

Cicada's sing to hide existential dread at their short lives

Along those lines, does he even practice law anymore? It seems he moved from Maryland to California and his webpage still points at Maryland.

John

I'm curious what made you start down this path, and continue down it? You and Lydia sacrificed a LOT, and it was a risk on your part, and I don't know enough about podcasting revenues to know how soon (if ever) you expect to break even on it now. But of course, had you not had so favorable an outcome, there would have been a risk of shelling out all that money for nothing to show for it. I'm so glad you did, and prevailed! But I can't imagine what it must have been like making all those agonizing decisions to keep going.

John

Today I learnt about the move. A summary for those of us not on the socials seems to be in order.

Whitty

The new theme banging-metal-trash-can-lids, you mean?

Graydon Armstrong

What had Andrew specifically said to you that he agreed he would do?

Cicada's sing to hide existential dread at their short lives

I'm curious if AG will be involved in the future of OA

No name

It must be really tough when you put up an AMA and there’s just no interest from people. C’mon patrons, let’s see if we can come up with at least ONE question we’re curious about on this topic!

Colbin Erdahl

What was the escalation from your public statement to him stealing the podcast? I can’t tell if he merely overreacted or if there’s some behind the scenes context I’m missing. (Not that my opinion of him would be good in either case)

Audrey Arnett

So tough, so many inside jokes died with A_____’s offenses. I have a tough time thinking about how much “we all” used to joke with that guy. I do think Thomas deserves credit for “Sternly Worded Crunchwrap”, and hope that it has survived. I also really hope there was a custody hearing for who’s allowed to use what inside jokes.

Colbin Erdahl

Better start recording your 15-hour episode, lol.

Lydia Smith

Did Morgan say that, or Teresa?

Josh Kramer

Man, this was a good idea. There are some goooooooood questions I cannot wait to answer.

Opening Arguments

Motions in lemonade! This is a lot of what I was thinking about.

Civil Politics Radio dot com (Fridays at 6pm EST on Valley Free Radio)

I didn’t feel that way before knowing things but the warmth in his voice makes me uncomfortable knowing what he’s done to people

Audrey Arnett

hoHOOOOO boy can't wait to answer this one to the extent that I can

Opening Arguments

The fact that Teresa was able to answer for her I think should tell folks a lot.

Opening Arguments

I figured that’s why we don’t have the “BREAKIN down THE LAW” intro (though I’d love to see a comeback of it)

Josh Kramer

SIO Patron-only rants/emotes would be appreciated. I think a lot of fans want to find a way to reconcile Andrew's seemingly progressive/reflective views (a la Louis CK).

Jace Browning

Foremost, I am interested in the literal timeline that happened in those first several weeks of the takeover. After that, I think an overview of the lawsuit would be super interesting, but maybe not as OA episodes.

Jace Browning

Not that I think you should start ANOTHER podcast, but I think this story is 100% worth telling but also shouldn't be part of your existing main feeds. Maybe it's an audio/video blog somewhere?

Jace Browning

Curious if you could talk more about the decision to settle, which I imagine must of been extremely difficult...on the one hand PAT was single handedly responsible for the enormous economic & reputational damage to OA, not to mention putting you and your family through hell and forcing you to incur large amount of debt because of the litigation. On the other hand, you achieved sole control/ ownership of the company and rid yourself of the guy (and any NDA!), not to mention all of the stress of litigation...If money had not been an issue, would you have wanted to press on with the lawsuit?

Nick Beatty

Thanks!

Michael Morrisson

But thanks to OA, I know that California has the most robust anti-SLAPP laws in the country! I support Thomas’ right to PP!

Colbin Erdahl

When I referenced emails, that was post-receiver. We had to conduct all OA business via the 3 of us. And Jesus were those some insane emails. To my knowledge, there is no legal reason I can’t share them. It’s also just… a lot. We’ll see. Could hit some highlights. The other insane stuff was the letters from his lawyer. Most of those are in the public record.

Opening Arguments

I would think the same, but Thomas has made mention of several comminications from at least Andrew's side, if not him directly. I don't know the nature of the communications, but it'd be something I'd like access to.

Michael Morrisson

One question on this front I've been wondering is how Thomas feels about all the call backs to the references from the PAT days such as crunchwraps, armatures, and so on. On the one hand, I can see not wanting constant reminders of him, but on the other I can also see not wanting to let him have all of that.

Michael Morrisson

Any thoughts on why Teresa Gomez and Liz Dye went full support for Andrew? Is it just selfish motivations, self-delusion, or what? I'm sure they didn't explain anything to you, but I don't know them either, and both of their behaviors really threw me for a loop. EDIT: Also, what are your thoughts/feelings on Legal Eagle featuring Liz now?

Michael Morrisson

It translates to hurry up- stress- pay- wait and wait - then stress again. Think a fight between people writing devastating horrible inane letters that have to slowly and $$$ cross the ocean to be delivered.

Navi Girl

I know it's not OA, but do you have anything to say about what happened with Dr. Lindsey Osterman? That seemed pretty sudden and drastic and unfortunate. Are you in touch at all?

Timothy High

What the hell with my prurient interest - did his wife divorce him?

Navi Girl

Usually the lawyers tell their clients not to contact the other party.

Navi Girl

What the court has shared with the public is available at: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/171WGO9WVBeXKU_b8A3U6aw3YamtJgxyt

Apprentice57

I love Matt. I said elsewhere that I always thought Andrew sounded like an asshole and I love that Matt sounds like such a sweet guy. He has my trust.

Landry Dugan

In some states breach of contract automatically gets atty fees but if you settle usually everyone bears their own. TS may have gotten a favorable ruling but then settled in lieu of AT appealing and keeping it going.

Navi Girl

Question for Matt: are there any of the old episodes that you have consulted as you prep for a topic that's been covered before, or as a springboard, or for dos/don'ts? I don't particularly want to re-listen to "Stormy Daniels Is A Legal Genius", but I'm finding the ongoing trial much more comprehensible because of it.

Civil Politics Radio dot com (Fridays at 6pm EST on Valley Free Radio)

There are a lot of ways to go I hadn’t considered… Lets go with what was the most unethical thing directed towards you.

Alexander Johnstone

Not the worst re the sexual harassment (to me) but the thing that floored you when he took that position in the litigation. Another is what 3rd party were you most surprised turned away from you - but that may not be fair.

Navi Girl

Andrew almost always said the right things, but I swear to god he just *sounded* like a creep. From day one of me listening to the show I never trusted him. Something about the way he spoke squicked me out through the radio. Anybody else get that feeling?

Landry Dugan

Jobu Tupaki

Has this ordeal cast a pall over the entirety of your time doing the show with PAT, or are there still things you remember positively?

Civil Politics Radio dot com (Fridays at 6pm EST on Valley Free Radio)

Love your username

Dusty Lee

Dang this has a lot of votes... Hmm, since it does, I want to ask a clarifying question of, worst for who? Like, worst toward me? Also, by impact or more... by principal? Like most unethical? Most dishonest? Lots of ways to go here lol

Opening Arguments

What was the exact setup with the bank account? I remember that at one point there was some discussion about whether it was a joint account or not, what the nature of your access was, etc. Whatever the setup was, was that Andrew's decision or yours? If it was Andrew's, how did he explain/justify it to you?

Marzipan Googolplex

Comparably small, but what was going on with Bryce Blankenagle? He was mentioned as a collaborator in your amended complaint, but then I never saw him brought up again. Helped Torrez out with the editing/production?

Apprentice57

Related to that, I hope you're all still on good terms and, purely from "I enjoyed her appearances on the show" perspective, I hope she comes back.

Civil Politics Radio dot com (Fridays at 6pm EST on Valley Free Radio)

I hope PAT had to take the notoriously tough CA bar exam and failed. Any info on that?

Jeanie Jean Jean

THE THEME SONG WAS SO BAD.

Apprentice57

Which still gets me because I remember him saying in the show a few times to always have a third party lawyer.

Don't use bad yarn as a life line in a fae yarn store. The yarn fairies will immediately remove it and you will get lost.

Probably moot because I can't imagine you won't expand this, but what the heck. On reddit you recently stated: "And I saw in discovery that he was planning to get rid of me before I even made my accusations." (he = Andrew) So... question: What the hell was going through his mind at this point? What could possibly be his casus belli at this early stage?

Apprentice57

Timothy got it translated. I was using talk to text, and apparently rambling. Sorry.

Inquiring Raven

I like the transcript episodes. My feeling is that even if they're not everyone's favorite, this is a very temporary change. The New York trial is only going to last a few more weeks. Maybe two more months at the absolute worst?

Dusty Lee

Gotcha -- I wrongly inferred that you were indicating that covering Stormy was bad for OA.

Gmork

Yeah, I've talked to more than a couple of people who say they'll never listen to anything with Eli on it, specifically, so I'd be interested in some of the details here as well.

James Hilton

The lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client, as the old saying goes.

James Hilton

Edited, now with real words. I think OA got a lot of positive attention for noticing the gravity of the Stormy story and now we're full circle with the conclusion

Russ

Lol

Lydia Smith

Did you listen to OA during the Andrew/Liz period?

Timothy High

A list of folks you will always know have your back.

KeepingThePlatesSpinning

What was Andrew like as a person off-air, before and after the stealage?

Timothy High

In terms of things that hurt most about having OA stolen, where would you rank the obvious drop in sound quality during that time? (And the new theme song)

Timothy High

How exactly did Andrew steal the podcast, and why couldn't you do anything about it (other than the court thingy)?

Timothy High

Why does your Patreon name taste like soap? 😅

Bob Cobourn

I think the reference is mainly to the fact that pre-blowup, there was no contract between the two business partners, even though one is a civil lawyer. The second half was maybe just covering all bases, but it's a valid question re: Matt.

Timothy High

OA has value in name, subscribers, and Patreon support.

Bob Cobourn

What was so bad for OA re Stormy Daniels? She seems cool w them.

Gmork

I don’t have any specific questions but I’m excited to hear your side of things. I finally subbed once I knew Andrew wasn’t getting any money. Happy to be here and supporting you and Matt :-)

Please Stop Belittling Me

As an additional bonus, said third party would likely have insurance and professional vetting profess to reduce the risk/cost of any defamation suit.

Gmork

I was surprised too. My family knew Andrew (long story), but I only found out he had moved to CA when everybody else on here did--and yet when I talked to them about the whole OA blowup, they already knew he had moved there.

Chris Conley

Would you ever consider releasing the emails and messages from Andrew throughout this whole legal mess that show just how depraived and manipulative he was? Not that we don't take you at your word since there's more than enough evidence to conclude that Andrew is a fuckwad, but it'd be nice to see his fuckery in his own words.

Michael Morrisson

Maybe split the difference, and just hit some highlights (lowlights, actually). I'm enjoying listening to them but it's probably not worth anyone's time.

Bob Cobourn

Your spine must be titanium. You’re awesome and so is Thomas

Satanmat

I know this is a long shot, but one of the most disturbing things Andrew was accused of doing (not that I'm trying to rank these things) was when an anonymous listener stated that he randomly friend requested them after never having interacted in person or online before, and quickly turned the conversation towards obviously sexual topics. More than just the one incident, he continued to message her out of the blue, including trying to meet up with her when she avoided a meet-up after a live event. Was there ever any discovery into Andrew's DMs on FB, Patreon, or other social media to determine how wide-spread this type of behavior was?

Michael Morrisson

I appreciate this one ❤️

Lydia Smith

Matt was asked this on reddit and Teresa chimed in to say "I can say for sure she will not be and the best way to support her is through her Substack." Teresa... is not always reliable as a source but I suspect this is accurate in this case.

Apprentice57

That’s precisely the point I’m making! Don’t worry, you’re not losing normal OA.

Opening Arguments

I'm not understanding your question. Andrew is 100% out. He has no current or eventually role in the company. So... what contract are you asking about?

Bob Cobourn

Agree 100% It is great on OA but pods like Prosecuting Donald Trump are all over it.

Matthew from Talking About the Big Stuff Podcast

Way back when this whole thing started there was a lot of talk about what you knew, when you knew it, and what you did and didn't do about it in terms of Andrew's behavior. I know some victims have called you out specifically and on FB you responded to me a couple of times in defense of those callouts, but due to the ongoing legal proceedings you were unable to mention specific exculpatory information. I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt due mostly to the objectively shitty behavior that Andrew was obviously guilty of (not just the sexual stuff, but the manipulation and deception he showed throughout all of his actions before and after the article) because clearly you were a victim of Andrew's disgusting behavior in one way or another. EDIT: I forgot to mention this before, but the one point made to me that struck home in your defense was that this type of call should never be on a business partner to make; thus the need for CAN. Now that it's all over, could you once and for all clear the air on what you knew, when you knew it, what you did at the time, what you didn't do, and the reasons for any inaction? To be perfectly clear, this is not an accusation of anything as the more I've heard, the more I've grown to believe in you as a person, but I think it's important to tie up this loose end. Thanks!

Michael Morrisson

Oooh interesting plot twist

Matthew from Talking About the Big Stuff Podcast

I think "Don't take legal advice from Alan Dershiwitz" is top tier trolling lmao I just checked to make sure the quote was correct. I think the recorded intro and disclaimer has been gone since the new intro quotes. I wonder if it's a side effect of podcasting with ADHD

Russ

No problem if this is too personal/off topic, but one of the big surprises I remember was hearing that Andrew had moved to California right around the same time as everything went down. It struck me as almost an intimidation tactic. Were you creeped out by the cross-country move or do I have an overactive imagination?

Dusty Lee

I remember reading this in the earliest court filings IIRC and it was more than just not having an agreement; it was Thomas repeatedly asking for one and Andrew refusing or ghosting him on it. With the events of the last year playing out like they did, it's not hard to see why he manipulated it like that

Michael Morrisson

This has become so important in recent years! We need accountability for those in positions of power that abuse their privilege - the American bar association has got to be a part of the solution when it comes to holding attorneys accountable!!

GenXNerd_Eli.is.Keats_AnnaFrogs_SmithVictory

As someone who experienced a unjust (but ultimately successful in my favor) life-altering lawsuit, I found that most of my habits, routines, and coping methods changed during the case, often in surprising and/or odd ways. Did you or Lydia experience similar? How did you cope with the stress on 'average' days?

Adam Remesnik

Same!

GenXNerd_Eli.is.Keats_AnnaFrogs_SmithVictory

Would you consider inviting a third party to report the whole story? Such as an established, objective journalist who could do a podcast series on the saga? For example, the podcasts "Bad Blood" and "The Dropout", which were each series about Elizabeth Holmes. Very well produced, high quality journalism, and very popular shows. This would add a lot of legitimacy to what's being reported, since it's not just from your perspective. As a side benefit, this format could grab the attention of many new people, leading to publicity for OA. (Just an idea. I also want to hear about it all direct from you!)

Quark Twain

Does Eli Bosnick own any Torrez-themed website names and what will they be redirected to?

Gmork

Is it trippy that one of the first major moments for OA was the Stormy Daniels story and now that lawsuit is in the spotlight in a huge way?

Russ

So, I think my biggest question is mostly about the lack of contract and if you feel “manipulated” (for lack of a better term) into not having a formal contract written up? Has your perspective changed going forward? I assume, no matter what his current or eventual role in the company will be, there will be a clear contract, with Matt* going forward. *edited for clarity.

Inquiring Raven

!

Congress- the opposite of PROgress

Same -- I often re-listen to old GAMs, but I have to immediately skip past the ones w him.

Gmork

I was surprised at that too. When Liz made her first appearance in OA, I was skeptical because she came from AboveTheLaw, which produces famously lazy and inexperienced lawsplaining. Hard to imagine her conduct since then has improved her reputation.

Gmork

Liking this for the hell of it. It’s like old times where Stormy gets 87 likes on a question.

Sarah, losing her mind with 2 wild puppies

I’d love is Matt (and Casey) were here to stay

Sarah, losing her mind with 2 wild puppies

That’s wonderful news! Congratulations Morgan!!

Sarah, losing her mind with 2 wild puppies

I hope for both. Matt is an excellent co-host and I hope he's permanent, but I'd also like to hear from guests to weigh in on area of law outside of his areas of expertise.

Gmork

Did you speak with Allison Gill as to the details on why she cut ties with PAT on her podcast Clean Up on Aisle 45?

Jeanie Jean Jean

This is super in the weeds, but there was an episode of DoD in which you mentioned panicking over an external hard drive that you thought had failed. Given the timing, I assumed it was an important piece of evidence in this case. If so, what was it?

Gmork

Did you get fairly compensated for the time Andrew had frozen you out? Did you have to buy him out as part of the settlement?

Matt Johnson

I agree. I miss Morgan’s pop law.

Sarah, losing her mind with 2 wild puppies

My understanding is it was settlement; no final ruling or admission of fault.

Gmork

I'll admit I was unsure when it broke who to trust (if anyone) but Andrew quickly went to work burning his own credibility.

Gmork

Or alternatively are there grounds to report him to a state bar for disciplinary action?

Jeanie Jean Jean

Liability insurance exists largely to protect people from this. It can be expensive, but better then bearing the costs of litigation yourself.

Gmork

Thomas, looking back, and you knowing Andrew better than us listeners, is there anything pre-2022 that you now see as a legitimate warning sign that you may have ignored at the time? I listened to that guy for hundreds of hours, and almost everything out of his mouth made him sound like an ally to women and other marginalized groups. Was this just the duplicity of someone who was pretty good at hiding a darker side of his personality? I personally was shocked by the news when it first came, but the few times I’ve heard his voice since, he now just sounds so slimy to my ears. I wonder why I ever trusted this guy, and further understand the way many people feel about all lawyers. Maybe there’s nothing but to be guarded against all people (men) as potential sleezebags, and trust processes like the CAN. I hope it’s not too direct, but I’m curious what you see looking back after a betrayal of someone you had so closely worked with in this way.

Colbin Erdahl

In the British system, there's a winner-takes-all presumption that the lower pays the winners legal bills, but under the American Rule, everyone pays their own lawyer bills barring a contract or statute to the contrary. Also, Thomas didn't "win" the case so much as he entered into a favorable settlement to drop it.

Gmork

There have been some questions about Liz Dye’s role in things, and related to that I wonder if you have any thoughts about her recent appearances on Legal Eagle’s videos? I know Andrew had been featured in one quite some time ago, but prior to Liz popping up in my YouTube feed I’d kind of assumed Legal Eagle would have cut ties with him. Maybe I’m reading too much into it but the timing seems suspect, and I wonder if Legal Eagle will be more involved with her podcast going forward. Either way I’ve lost my appetite for his videos… Also: CONGRATS ON THE GOOD COURT THINGY!!!

my patreon name was chosen by a court appointed receiver and it was absolutely the right call

Good for her!

Gmork

Lawyers are famously bad at taking their own advice. I've never read my own insurance policy no matter how many hundreds of times I've advised others to re a d through theirs.

Gmork

Besides PAT, which lawyer disappointed you the most in this whole debacle, and why? Biggest delta between what you'd expect and how they actually acted?

Jason Foley

Awarding legal costs to one party seems like a pretty major penalty, effectively saying "None of your arguments had any merit; not only could you never have won the case as presented, you made it needlessly difficult on everyone involved." While it comes up a lot in Trump related legal disputes (for some reason...) I don't imagine it's something you'd see much at all in a dispute over dissolution of a business.

Barmp

Was there much that went on in the receivership period between the three of you? How did that work and what kinds of things did you need to bring to be voted on (as you mentioned in the latest episode that you're now free of that process)? We saw from court docs some early emails about your content plan being approved by d'Entremont, Andrew asking for additional time to produce an alternative content plan. Did Andrew bring many things to be voted on? Did he participate much in this process besides presumably just voting against anything you brought? (Separated out this topic from my other question for voting purposes)

Kevin Duff

At first I assumed it was a typo, before I realized they were just ominously making their presence known.

Gmork

I thought it odd that the famous phrase hasn't reappeared since Thomas got control back. Maybe you're onto something...

Liam Child

I hope Matt is the permanent replacement!

Here for the memes

Did this experience alter the way you structure your agreements w other business partners, like w Daddy Issues?

Gmork

They settled

Tonei Glavinic

I read in comments somewhere here I think that not having a contract was a matter of professional standards for a lawyer - now Smith has (won?) the ownership battle, I wonder if he can sue him for breaching those professional standards?

I am a philosophical hole

I'm with you! Would hate to lose normal OA

Here for the memes

In the sole Thomas and Liz episode you said that Andrew was stepping away for a time or words to that effect. If he hadn't gone off the deep end and stole the show from you do you think Andrew could have eventually come back?

Liam Child

Do you have or are you planning to get insurance to cover yourself in the future? Media insurance for defamation claims seems like it would be a wise investment, whether by Andrew or and subjects from When There's Woke.

Gmork

I have no idea what Stormy is going to ask, but I know it'll be good.

Don't use bad yarn as a life line in a fae yarn store. The yarn fairies will immediately remove it and you will get lost.

How did Liz go from doing a solo episode with you when you announced Andrew was going to take some time off, to assisting Andrew in the takeover of the show and actively working to shut down the voices of the accusers and community, in just a few days? If you can discuss it, what was going on behind the scenes there?

Kevin Duff

Is there any chance of Morgan making an appearance? I’m sure she has some great insight into Alex Jone’s bankruptcy hearings.

Michael Ardron

I know she’s working for Mark Bankston now. Would be great have her on to talk about the Alex Jones bankruptcy case

Michael Ardron

She went to work for the law firm that got the judgement against Alex Jones. She has a Substack but doesn’t post there very often.

Mark M

So what was Liz Dye's role in all this. The Five Dollar Feminist seemed incredibly eager to attach herself to Andrew as soon as everyone started to see what a creep he was.

Gmork

"However, it's going to either have to be the only thing we do for OA for the foreseeable future, or else we somehow need to do that massively labor intensive thing PLUS keep up old OA." I for one do not think the transcript thing is worth all that effort and loss of normal OA coverage. I'm glad you did it, maybe once in a while it'll be good to have again, but I really don't want it to get in the way of normal stuff. There's a TON of other people's coverage of the trial, I really appreciated that OA avoided being all Trump all the time.

Andy the Dandy

Setting Andrew aside because obviously the majority of questions will be about him. I’m curious what mistakes do you believe you made and what would you have done different given the benefit of hindsight?

someoneyouusedtoknow

Did you ever report Andrew for attorney misconduct to the Maryland or D.C. Bar? It seems that he had a number of clients who were affected by his conduct, including financially.

Dr. Clerk

Now that you have the benefit of hindsight, what, if any, regrets do you have regarding how you handled the whole fiasco from your side?

Rayman!

First, so happy that this is finally over, and that you won! Would you consider doing a high level overview/timeline of what happened, in terms of the legal process? Not necessarily with details on what the facts were, but things like when the critical events happened, when the suit was filed, when folks had to respond to things, how/when documents had to be produced, how/when negotiations happen throughout the process, etc. I think most of us who aren't lawyers think of court cases in terms of the stuff we see in the court room on Law & Order, but it would be interesting to learn about how a dispute actually translates into the legal process.

Mike Lazzaro

That feels like an upgrade.

The 40-Year-Old 1L

A lot of aspirations were cast at the PIAT crowd early on for allegedly helping cover up Andrew's behavior. I'm guessing you don't agree given that you're still partnering w Eli, but I wouldn't mind hearing about their involvement if any in the litigation/dispute.

Gmork

I may have missed this in the posts so far, but ELI5 - what (legally) was the outcome? Did Defendant settle, or was there a ruling of some kind that ended everything?

The 40-Year-Old 1L

I was quite surprised to hear this as well, and shortly before the whole thing started I'd considered asking if Andrew could go through the OA contract to highlight the hows and whys of these things when they're structured in an amicable way. Turns out that was an incredibly bold assumption on my part, that they had a contract and it would have been structured amicably...

Barmp

With not signing an NDA , are you allowed to disclose other terms of the settlement and if so what are they? Did you get money?

Jeanie Jean Jean

She actually works with/for Mark Bankston now, the lawyer from the case where Alex Jones lost a billion dollars.

James Hilton

What was the most frustrating/inane stumbling block you had to face on the whole process? Also, congratulations to you and your family. Really glad to have you back at the helm, I really missed the show once you left as I immediately stopped listening.

Michael Ardron

Ah that tracks, thanks!

Wren

Follow up question: Originally the plan, as I remember it, was for there to be kind of a rotating cast of lawyers acting as temporary cohosts. Is that still the plan or is Matt more or less the official permanent law-talking cohost?

James Hilton

Not Thomas or a lawyer, but basically the times where the losing party pays all legal costs are usually when the judge/jury includes that as part of the final verdict. Since this case was settled, it would have been something that had to be negotiated as part of the settlement, which doesn't usually happen because it's a huge disincentive to settling for that party.

James Hilton

Thomas I think you are great and I love the show with Matt. You are clearly a great podcasting talent who has a great ability to build an audience. Very respectfully, why did you and PAndrew both not just go out and start your own new shows? You both have continued legal podcasting and it seems like a great expense could have been spared. Is there anything you would have done differently if you had to do it again?

Steve S

First: How do you think Andrew has managed to maintain his (admittedly heavily diminished) following in the podcasting/atheist community? Before all this, I thought the OA community harbored fewer SA apologists. It shocked me how much support Andrew received given the allegations and his not-very-credible response. Second: Do you have regrets about how this went down so publicly and so chaotically? If given the chance, what would you have done differently?

John Weinberg

Other than not having a contract for OA what was the most important thing you learned from the lawsuit for a small business

Jeanie Jean Jean

Thomas, would you ever do a podcast episode series about this hell? Cause I would listen to it five times over. And I would absolutely buy the book. I just want to say again that I’m so glad for you to have won back the pod and to have reached the time when you can actually speak freely. I had become a loyal OA listener by the time the old pod went 4x a week and I was just about to join on Patreon when everything went down. I’ve been through such similar experiences and felt so awful for you and Lydia. I jumped on SOI and then WTW for Patreon and was so relieved to finally become a proud OA Patreon when you came back. I wanted to share my deep appreciation for your bravery, transparency (when you’ve been able to), and determination. I can deeply empathize with the pain on your moral conscience. I have way way too many questions so may see what others articulate here first but I’m grateful. And I needed OA right now more than ever to help make it through the current legal insanity. Thank you to you and Matt and Lydia for everything.

M. D. Nova

Having been through the legal system, where even if you’re clearly demonstrably in the right from the outset you can be in a position to have to pay enormous amounts of money just wind up with…*some* of what you had before (not nearly whole), what legal reforms would you like to see to make cases like yours less horrible for the prevailing party? Or even possible, in the case of people taken advantage of who may not have the resources to fight?

Apprentice of Adventure

Possibly a silly/basic question, but since you won why are you stuck with so much in legal bills? That seems like a terrible way for the system to work (so, not terribly surprising), but why is this different from situations where the losing party ends up responsible for all legal costs? Very good to see you back and to hear things went in your favor

Wren

https://substack.com/@morganstringer?r=gc62l&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=profile She is no longer with AT.

Therese Chan

I'm always curious with these sort of things: Has all of this changed how you vet or think about working with others? If you were to offer advice to someone looking to start any kind of partnership, what would it be now that you've been through this?

Scott Seligman

No question. Just wanted to say glad you're back and wisning you the best. I re upped as a patron shortly after I learned you were back and every dollar spent has been worth it.

Maxwell Skipworth

What is the single worst thing Andrew did during this fiasco that the public is not yet aware of?

Alexander Johnstone

What is the status of the OA foundation, and the donations people made to it? Did you end up donating it before shot hit the fan?

I've put too way to much thought in to my patreon name, and this is what you get

I've done a bit of reading the court filings back and forth, so I think I have an 'ok' picture of what happened. I'm sure there's a LOT more behind the scenes stuff that happened and hearing about whatever you're comfortable telling would be great. I only have one question for you. How are you and Lydia doing now that it's over? I hope well. I think it would be great to put your story together from when you first found out about the article being published all the way to the day you got signed settlement papers back from your former business partner. Only you know the key things and we might just be guessing. Take your time, put it all together into a single coherent story of as many parts as you need and tell us about it.

Michael Rops

What happened with ace associate Morgan Stringer? I liked her but I figure she must have gone over to the dark side or you would have mentioned her. I also used to follow her on Twitter, but left all that mess last October.

Cilantro

I can think of a few questions the answers to which might get you sued again, this time for defamation. So how about this relatively benign one: Did he insist on taking "don't take legal advice from a podcast" in the divorce? That seems like the kind of thing he would do.

Congress- the opposite of PROgress

So glad you have the show back! Is it true that the guy who specialized in contract law for small businesses did not insist on a contract for the small business known as Opening Arguments LLC? Was there any discussion at any time about making one? What was the reason given for not having one if there was no contract?

Don't use bad yarn as a life line in a fae yarn store. The yarn fairies will immediately remove it and you will get lost.

What's Matt's role in the company officially? Does he have a stake or does Thomas fully own the company at this point?

Here for the memes

Not really a question, but I am worried about Andrew suing you for defamation if you say the wrong thing on the podcast or in a Q and A session. Not having an NDA probably feels liberating after having to keep your mouth shut during all the proceedings, but are you worried about him coming after you in a vindictive manner? (I guess that was a question after all)

Mark M

How on earth did you cope with the stress of the whole thing?

Sarah

I read somewhere that there was no written business agreement between Thomas and Andrew, although the idea of 50/50 ownership was mentioned repeatedly. Was there really no written agreement? If not, how did a business lawyer "let" that happen?

Laura Barton

Are you taking care of yourself and the family? After that… thank you for everything

Satanmat

Given the topic, I wasn't really going to try for a funny question because I would worry that any joke would come across as deeply insensitive. Although with the replies to my placeholder, I'm really feeling the pressure.... I suppose what I'd like to know (that hasn't already been asked) is whether you want us to keep using any of the prior lingo (Negatron, etc.) or if it's just going to get on your nerves.

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