The 2024 Bard and Subclasses
Added 2024-08-23 03:11:35 +0000 UTC
Comments
No one seems excited about dance bards, but I wonder if the “optimal” way to play them might be to use their free unarmed strikes when using inspiration on allies to grapple them and trigger their e.g. spirit guardians/conjure woodland beings off turn. Tandem footwork could be used to the same effect. Could flavor this as “dancing with them” They don’t do this as well as a monk of course (their bonus unarmed strikes require a resource and they don’t get extra movement for free) but they’re also a full caster
Chad S
2024-09-09 04:37:41 +0000 UTCI think bardic had a "minor" change. You give bardic to someone but they can roll the die when they know they fail, so less chance of bardic being wasted
Kleyo
2024-09-04 21:30:04 +0000 UTCI think there is always a lot to be said about having combinations of spells not available to other classes, and we are getting more of that here.
Jacob Monroe
2024-08-29 16:06:44 +0000 UTCMantle of inspiration with an ally with spirit guardians is going to be great for pinball shenanigans.
Jason G. Rheins
2024-08-28 19:28:20 +0000 UTCI wonder if a dance bard/monk multi-class would be any good. Without the rules in front of me, I can't tell if it would synergize or would be redundant.
Jason G. Rheins
2024-08-28 19:21:21 +0000 UTCIf the party doesn't have a Wizard, I do think Ritual Caster can be a very nice feat for a bard and will let you get those great ritual spells without eating up your limited preparations.
Jason G. Rheins
2024-08-28 19:11:50 +0000 UTCooooh true I forgot Bladesong doesn't work in Medium Armor! I don't think I'm sold on Bard having less wide utility, Wizard gets Arcane Recovery and Quick Ritual which are nice, but High Level Bard has the broader spell list no?
4RoryVT
2024-08-27 17:30:24 +0000 UTCBiggest draw for Bladesinger in this comparison would be access to more spell preparations and slots, as well as ridiculous CON saves. So I think if you want your spells to focus purely on supporting your martial output and you don't care too much for the wider utility, Bard would be my choice. But if you want gish-ing to be one of many tools in the toolbelt of an amazing caster, I'd probably lean towards Bladesinger.
Fred de Jong
2024-08-27 11:40:03 +0000 UTCKeep in mind Bladesong doesn't work with medium armour or a shield. Bard has the advantage of more flexibility on when to go melee or not, while Bladesinger relies on a limited resource for that capability because they'd have to be wearing light or no armour, leaving them vulnerable whenever they can't use Bladesong. Spirit Guardians or Conjure Fey (might be another conjure spell) are also nice options to have for a melee character, even if they don't directly boost your attacks.
Fred de Jong
2024-08-27 11:31:16 +0000 UTC…actually just looked through lists, and… besides Font of Moonlight, I can’t find any spells a Valor Bard wants (in regards to gish combat) which Wizards don’t also get
4RoryVT
2024-08-27 11:17:58 +0000 UTCBladesinger with a level 1 Artificer dip will also always be one caster level ahead of Valor Bard with a Warlock dip, which sometimes matters a lot
4RoryVT
2024-08-27 11:05:32 +0000 UTCOpen Question: which is better- Valor Bard with a Warlock dip, or Bladesinger with an Artificer dip and Multipurpose Tool (aka Int based Shillelagh/EB)? Both have Medium Armor and Shield proficiency, Extra (Cantrip) Attack, access to at least one of EB and Shillelagh, as well as True Strike (and BB/GFB), and both can cast CME if you care about that. Bladesinger gets Blade Song, Arcane Recovery, Con save proficiency, and at 14 +Int to melee weapon damage; Valor Bard gets Bardic Inspiration, Weapons as spell focus, more spell/cantrip versatility, and at 14 BA extra attack. I think I favor Valor Bard, for getting EB AND Shillelagh, and I have to think there’s SOMETHING on the Druid or Cleric list a gish wants, casting focus is nice when it comes up, Bardic Inspiration is great, and the build doesn’t rely on an attuned item to function, but Bladesong AND Con save proficiency is NICE- an Artificer in Bladesong never losing concentration, and has a frankly ridiculous AC.
4RoryVT
2024-08-27 11:03:39 +0000 UTCI’d argue Valor Bard is MUCH stronger than Bladesinger within that role- just getting medium armor and shields is huge, can use weapons as casting focus, and at higher levels a Bladesinger is going to become basically another wizard, while Valor Bard gets an Extra Attack, full spell list, and easy dip into Warlock (note: a 1 level dip in Artificer levels the field a bit, particularly if your DM gives you an All Purpose Tool, which you will be using as the only way to get Int Based Shillelagh or EB, but only for 8 hours per day (technically per tool))
4RoryVT
2024-08-27 10:44:15 +0000 UTCI would really love a deeper dive into the particular spells that makes you think that Wizards are still the most powerful class in your analysis of the Wizard.
Erik Hedström
2024-08-27 04:46:42 +0000 UTCYou play Trumpet??
ForemostGnat353
2024-08-27 02:00:53 +0000 UTCOh yeah, multi-classing is still an optional rule, right? Definitely nerfing that aspect in my non-AL games.
Glenn Wilson
2024-08-26 15:07:25 +0000 UTCI need to play with the new PHB to evaluate it. All I will say is that “like a wizard” is not the same as “is a wizard.”
Glenn Wilson
2024-08-26 15:05:22 +0000 UTC👉👌 t(^_^t)
4RoryVT
2024-08-24 11:19:59 +0000 UTCRAW this seems to check out, RAI feels dubious, but regardless would allow at table because (ignoring CME cheese) Leveled Spell + Attack > Cantrip + 2 Attacks (possibly 3 with Nick) If we ARE using CME cheese, we are better off stopping at Bard 12 and taking 2 levels of Sorcerer and fueling Quicken Spell with our bonus action instead of a single extra attack, so at same Character Level, the extra attack still isn't optimal. Converting spell slots to SP doesn't take an action now, so we can burn low level slots to maintain for a while.
4RoryVT
2024-08-24 11:17:12 +0000 UTC3 Notes: 1) I think Unbreakable Majesty nerf is different than presented: 2014 when creature first attempts to attack you [...] must choose a new attack or attack is wasted; 2024 When a creature first hits with an attack, it misses instead. This is worse for you personally, but creature cannot redirect to hit an ally in range, and if it misses a previous attack, you get to soak an extra potential attack. That said, 2014, if the creature SUCCEEDED on its saving throw, it got disadvantage on next save made against a spell you cast next turn, which is both individually strong and absent 2024 2) College of Glamour Mantle of Majesty pairs well with taking Charm effect from Beguiling Magic to guarantee the failed save 3) Bard is Best Class specifically because of Conjure Minor Elementals cheese. Absent that, it's not a Wizard with Bardic Inspiration, but buffs make it competitive.
4RoryVT
2024-08-24 11:07:56 +0000 UTCAttack Action, replace one attack with a Cantrip with 1 action casting time = cast a spell with casting time of one action, triggers Battle Magic, BA Attack? As far as I can tell, RAW this checks out, but I don't feel that this was intended. I'd probably allow it though, given that two attacks + cantrip aren't going to be as strong as leveled spell + single attack (unless abusing CME)
4RoryVT
2024-08-24 10:47:47 +0000 UTCElditch Adept does not give you +1 to any ability scores.
Bartosz Czaplewski
2024-08-24 08:32:33 +0000 UTCI mean to be fair if you treat old feats as half-feats, specifically when they’re reverse compatible NOT as half feats, there’s a lot of wild stuff you can do
PlannedTuna
2024-08-24 06:11:58 +0000 UTCLooks like College of Valor just swapped with Bladesinger for my default fallback subclass. Don't get me wrong, Bladesinger is still really strong, but with Bard's default access to healing spells, bardic inspiration, and synergy should you choose to multiclass they very naturally slot into a party. Treat Elditch Adept as a General feat with a +1 to int, Wis, or Cha and you have the option to make a monster, with or without Conjure Minor Elementals
EdibleFriend
2024-08-24 01:24:25 +0000 UTCIn your analysis bard can’t beat a wizard but do you think they are stronger then Druid or cleric ? I can’t wait for you to rank the new classes lol
Jamien Ousey
2024-08-24 00:44:19 +0000 UTCThanks again Chris, this a high quality deep dive. Thanks for putting the changes in perspective
Jamien Ousey
2024-08-24 00:10:40 +0000 UTCI think the wording on the valor bard’s 14th level feature would “cast a spell with a casting time of one action”, means that it interacts with extra attack, where you cast a cantrip with a casting time of an action. So essentially you can make 2 attacks + 3 EB+AB at level 14 with the warlock multi class.
sadkoeni 7
2024-08-23 19:52:51 +0000 UTCIt's better than free dual wielder 2024 as well, because you can still use a shield with it if you don't want to dual wield. (Or multiclass for a fighting style) Now you can have CME up while you EB then make two weapon attacks, with the same weapon. Which can be better and have different mileage in different campaigns. That bonus action becomes a massive amount of damage, because that CME can be cast at 7th level. That's weapon dmg die + mod + 8d8 from 7th level CME.
Bryn
2024-08-23 19:43:08 +0000 UTCCantrips are spells. They are just at will spells that do not cost a spell slot. As I pointed out the feature is rather vague, lacking all other codifying terms such as "As an Action" or "As a Magic Action" but it also lacks other codifying terms such as "A leveled spell" which WotC has used before as well.
Bryn
2024-08-23 18:26:54 +0000 UTCMinor nitpick, but the class chart shows that Bards will know 14 spells at level 9, which must all be from the Bard list. Since only one spell can be switched per level (unless that has changed?), and there are only 11 levels where you can switch a spell and choose the replacement from the other lists, it's only possible to replace 11 of those 14 Bard spells by level 20. So a level 20 Bard must still have 3 spells from the Bard list, and those spells must be level 5 or lower. It is possible for all 3 of them to be level 5 spells, if you pick two level 5 spells and swap for one at level 9, so there's good flexibility in which 3 level-5-or-lower Bard spells you keep, but you can't replace ALL of them.
Bob daBlue
2024-08-23 13:41:41 +0000 UTCI think you can still flavor cutting words without the literal "words" part, a gesture can also impart the same idea.
Josh L
2024-08-23 13:25:56 +0000 UTCYes cantrips are spells
PlannedTuna
2024-08-23 12:54:10 +0000 UTCDoes Cantrip count as a "Spell" tho?
Kaien
2024-08-23 12:06:40 +0000 UTCYou would still do 2 attacks and a cantrip as an action. but one of the attacks, wouldn't have your modifier
Frank Bastian
2024-08-23 11:36:44 +0000 UTCI was wondering the same thing. But I think it doesn't work because Extra Attack says: "...in place of one of THOSE attacks." referring to the attacks granted by Extra Attack, not the Light Weapon property/ Nick Mastery. I might be wrong though
Frank Bastian
2024-08-23 11:34:55 +0000 UTCOkay, so a Nick-based attack wouldn't be one of "those" attacks, even if it is included in the same Attack Action?
Bartosz Czaplewski
2024-08-23 10:43:59 +0000 UTCI don’t think so, because the extra attack feature says “in place of one of those attacks”, probably referring to the “attack twice” part “You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. In addition, you can cast one of your cantrips that has a casting time of an action in place of one of those attacks.”
Lukes AndadorDoCeu
2024-08-23 09:52:58 +0000 UTCYay! Bard time! I’m extremely excited for this one
Lukes AndadorDoCeu
2024-08-23 09:48:20 +0000 UTCIt's even better, because you can use any weapon, not just light ones. Is there an official way to take the DW feat and train out of it at level 14?
Tomislav Tomic
2024-08-23 08:40:25 +0000 UTCLet's assume that you have weapon mastery for Nick property and now you are making three attacks as an action. Can you cast a cantrip instead of attacking with a Nick weapon? In this way, you would attack twice and cast a cantrip as an action?
Bartosz Czaplewski
2024-08-23 07:28:07 +0000 UTCI think you are correct. Battle Magic 2024 is free Dual Wielder 2024.
Bartosz Czaplewski
2024-08-23 07:28:03 +0000 UTCSo the dice for bardic inspiration go up faster than monk dice, but you get far less opportunities to bonus action strike, is what we pointed out.
Joseph Rion
2024-08-23 05:23:17 +0000 UTCI happened to catch it because me and my friends were discussing the new phb for the new campaign we haven't started yet, and i saw the little note pop up, and i'm like, what could that be.
Joseph Rion
2024-08-23 05:22:26 +0000 UTCHey, just fyi. I think you're sleeping on something on the level 14 feature of Valor bard. Unlike other rules it doesn't say "As an action" like 2014 or like other 2024 rules "As a magic action." Battle Magic 2014 "At 14th level, you have mastered the art of weaving spellcasting and weapon use into a single harmonious act. When you use your action to cast a bard spell, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action." Battle Magic 2024 "After you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action, you can make one attack with a weapon as a bonus action." Extra Attack 2024 "You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. In addition, you can cast one of your cantrips that has a casting time of an action in place of one of those attacks." Therefore, as an action you use extra attack you cast a spell with a casting time of an action and make an attack. Bonus Action you make an attack because you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action. What are your thoughts on this Chris?
Bryn
2024-08-23 03:56:18 +0000 UTCOh wow, really posting whenever
Nicholas Arosemena
2024-08-23 03:27:59 +0000 UTCLet's Go!
Joseph Rion
2024-08-23 03:13:42 +0000 UTC
