Smile Was Good, Actually

I guess I don't necessarily agree with Slazenger, I was just saying that the depictions of self-harm were particularly graphic to me, and I was wondering if this was due to my own trauma or whether we just don't tend to see *self-harm so graphically depicted (ie blood starkly bleeding from slitting of throats and wrists, lack of camera cut aways during active harm) I am also not sure that striving to make this move available to anyone over 13 is a great goal necessarily, the theme is complex and dark even without the blood

Jane Delmonico

(I haven’t seen the full movie—I can’t do horror—and I think the meaning of a film absolutely lives in the details, so take the following with a huge grain of salt.) I like this analysis a lot, and I strongly disagree with the idea that every movie about severe mental illness needs to have an after-school-special message in its resolution. And I want to add that Joel (the character not Henry lol) being the sole person trying to lend her constructive help and instead getting drawn in to her trauma doesn’t remotely support Jack Saint’s argument. It’s extremely true that trauma gets transmitted, even to people who do everything right in supporting their loved ones, because ONE person’s support is often not enough; the illness can take them in and crush them too. That’s part of the value of loving anyone right? The risks you take on when you so empathize with someone’s joy and pain. In many/most dramatic stories that gamble pays off well, at least in the sense that the characters have peace that their losses were worthwhile, but isn’t there something honest in acknowledging we can’t always be sure, or sometimes we lose more than we gain? To me the film, at least in its broad strokes, has an extremely intentional message, one that legitimizes the danger and devastation trauma can reap despite our best efforts. All that said, what I react to most strongly in Jack’s review and others is that thread of hyper-moralism that is everywhere now, that thing of trying to clearly discern a theme you could like campaign behind rather than allowing a piece of media to be judged as art—and you might very well feel this is a bad movie artistically; I just kind of recoil when the evidence for that is “confusing message” or “message seems unethical,” if that makes sense.

Also the part where Jack Saint said that Rose's ex-bf was "punished by the narrative" for trying to help Rose rubbed me the wrong way too- not every bad thing that happens to a character is meant to represent a Punishment for some moral transgression!

Right! And just because we see our protagonist fail doesn't mean the story has to be a morality tale in which we're called on to judge them for some misstep- just because Rose lost her battle with trauma doesn't mean we have to look at something she did and go "Aha, that was her fatal mistake and why she failed, the Moral Of The Story is Don't Do That" and the way Jack Saint seemed to assume that was the case just seemed like bad criticism to me.

if you think movies should cut out gore in order to get a pg13 rating, then perhaps horror movies are not for you.

telling a story about someone who did everything they could but still succumbed to their trauma is not saying "suicide is inevitable for some people". like i really think it's just egregiously unfair to call a movie wherein the protagonist spends the entire movie trying to avoid committing suicide a "pro-suicide" movie just because she ultimately fails. and a story in which the main character fails doesn't need to be a morality tale in which we are called to judge them in some way, it's okay to tell a bleak story in which the main character does everything they can possibly do and still doesn't succeed, because that's part of life sometimes, and it's okay to portray parts of life in art even if they can make us uncomfortable.

When I saw the film I felt similarly to Jack and would still lean that way. I have a ptsd diagnosis and while I think it is accurate for a lot of people with trauma that it is their downfall, i wanted to see her find a way out. I think because I feel hopeless sometimes and I really wanted to see a good outcome for her. The film felt like it gave you a situation where everyone had failed before her, then it spends the whole movie showing her fail the same way. I do think you made a great point about people weaponising her trauma against her to invalidate what she was saying. It reminds me of DV situations involving mentally ill people, who are blamed for the situation when their much more well spoken and credible abuser talks to authorities.

You hit the nail on the head with the writing. If there was truly an intent to explore these theme it utterly fails in what a poorly written script it is. You can see how badly written it is in how the mental health professionals talk and the terms they use, it's like there was no research done into it whatsoever.

Slazenger Kincaid

OH no the movie is shockingly graphic in some ways. When the main character has the pictures of the aftermaths of all of these suicides I reeled back in my seat because they were SO horrifying. The whole movie felt like it could have very easily been a PG-13 if not for the gratuitous gore and the fact everyone screams "fuck" all of the way through. It's like it's trying to be edgy

Slazenger Kincaid

I haven’t seen that. I should check it out. I’m interested in art that explores the topic, but I still have a moral sense about how it should or shouldn’t be depicted. I’m an atheist, so talking in terms of morals is unfamiliar territory for me, but it’s the most honest way I can describe how I feel.

Alice

Are you ok with death of a salesman being written?

Melody Williamson

On a moral level, I feel like art should be anti-suicide. I get how a NIN song with a dark vibe can be cathartic, but Smile is a movie that's nearly 2 hours and tells a full story. So I don't think it's okay to tell a story that says suicide is inevitable for some people. If the movie is really about how people with a trauma history need support, I don't think it's written well enough to make that metaphor work.

Alice

You saying its fine that the movie doesn't provide catharsis...thank you! That bothered me alot about Jack saints review. Like, ya sometimes people lose their battle with depression and its fine to make a movie about that, and that's not enough of a reason imo to call the movie bad. And ya, sometimes depressed people just want to see a piece of art that depicts how they feel - lost and without an answer.

Melody Williamson

i struggled to watch this movie because of how graphic it was with self-harm, but realistically that may be more of a me thing, i wonder if it seemed gratuitous to anyone else?

Jane Delmonico

I really liked this video. I haven't watched the movie (too scary) but i like your thoughts on trauma.

Svenja Illig

I don't agree with your assessment of the film, I'm pretty much in line with what Jack said. I don't need a movie to end in a pleasing cathartic way, I just think Smile was really, really dumb and treated its audience the same. The film also had a really dim view of the mentally ill and I just didn't like it. It's kind of a shite It Follows when it's all said and done. Did you like NOPE?

Slazenger Kincaid

I think polls are an interesting idea, but it should be allowed to do multiple votes so you don't run into the problems associated with FPTP ALSO, you (Joel) should only allow things on the list that you might be reasonably interested in because if you start letting people suggest stuff you don't care about then that pizzaz, that je-ne-sais-quoi, the special Joel sweet and spicey combo will be lost kinda like how the band Miracle of Sound lost all their joy cuz they 'had to do' songs about things that were trending even if they didn't care about the franchises

Luc Taylor

I agree with this sentiment.

Chasr Taylor

Tbh i like the bonuses being whatever random thing you feel like talking about, maybe sometimes you can take suggestions but only if they resonate with you rather than it being a formal process

Deanna