POD 117: Day 2 dispatch from DEA HQ

I like your editing 👍 It is nice!!

Ed Dragan

This Dr Jaster is something!!

Tyler Stark

The parent teacher conference thing blows my mind. No substance needed, DEA will take a joke as evidence of abuse.

Tyler Stark

Hamilton I legitimately shed a tear of joy and respect upon hearing Dr. Jasters response! What a woman, and thank you for letting us hear that !

Zakh Hyman

I don't remember my username under oath lmao 😂

Creepy Crawley

Hey if it was in Antarctica at least it'd be easy to cool down from all that hot 🔥🥵 hot stimulation, hehe.

Creepy Crawley

Liam Pane of One Direction used Pink Cocaine....wtf does that have to do with this hearing...good god have mercy.

Creepy Crawley

Yeah I think in this episode Hamilton said he sent him a message (someone correct me if I'm wrong)...so that probably was a wake up call lol.

Creepy Crawley

Having my Al Pachino moment 😂 good god, someone needs to turn these hearings into a movie. It'll be hilarious to watch on dropping some DEA while eating spaghetti 🍝 with carbanero sauce. Fuckin 'ell matey!

Creepy Crawley

This is sensational reporting Hamilton

Adam Wall

Thank you so much for your work on this and for sharing it with us. I was choked up with emotion hearing you describe Day 2. I am inspired!

John Pal

OMG your recounting of Dr. Jaster's testimony had me on the edge of my seat. Way to go Dr. Jaster, but also kudos to you for your amazing narration of the events.

Goopy

I had to laugh in the middle of the street when Hamilton said that

Natalie Zementbeisser

I love the odd detail with the 9 million dollar mega yacht hahaha

Natalie Zementbeisser

Thank you for the incredible reporting and the good giggles. I burst out laughing in my kitchen at the shitposting cross examination. Bless the folks at SSPD for doing such great work, they’re making Kris Lotlikar proud ❤️

Lily Smith

I don't know if you noticed how on purpose Mr.Mann was trying to deliver the idea of him having no idea of what he's doing .... but how he really got altered the moment that a very specific group of molecules to which DOI belongs was mentioned, something that its far from what someone that is absolutely incompetent and "irrational" wouldn't do. I even bet he really got into reading "power games" literature, and was thinking of himself as a great tactician by applying the "play fool" play, that would kill him two birds with a single shot: 1) He has a public excuse for his antisocial behavior and decisions; 2) He deludes the naive opponents (to which you seem to belong) into not taking him seriously, and committing mistakes due to banal underestimation, since people sadly have a tendency to stereotype everything asap, to simplify their thought processes. I believe that at this point you would have heard the day 4 report, and noticed the pattern I pointed here. And so far I'm 100% sure that my hypothesis is in the right realm (if not completely on target here). "more unlikely that someone is pulling the strings of the DEA to go after any drugs" Excuse me? Why do you believe that Cannabis was regulated, while Tobacco not? Or why MDMA was regulated, but Alcohol not? There was an overwhelming disparity between safety data, and financial interests behind each compound; with the same measurements now applying to the DOI group and opioids (and other anti-inflamatory and analgesic drugs). Do you think that all the people working at the Government are sub 100IQ morons? Have you ever questioned yourself what "lobbying" is and what it's used for? Have you not seen enough examples from other governmental institutions (including both executive and legislative branches) making decisions based on it? People in positions of power are extremely effective at getting what they want: money, and more power. Incompetence and irrational behavior is just the result of them acting antisocially. Look at their bank accounts and career, and you will really see what they're competent and ration on.... Its sad that people in fundamental sciences have a strong tendency to fall into the Dunning-Kruger effect and while having a deep understanding of their respective fields, dramatically fail at understanding and evaluating human behavior, politics, economics, and power games. Let me know when you get the "a-ha" moment an realize the thing..... we probably have a quite different background and world experience, so we require a quite different amount of sample points to see where a line can be drawn.

Alejandro C.

Terrifying... big brother is watching... concerning the "shit post" well I can't remember.

E Lee

Hamilton I work in a Pharmacology lab and we switched to using TCB-2 as a 2a agonist which is not the best but we’re making it work.

Chad Barthalamew

almost certainly, and may i ask if this comment is an example of a “shit post” for legal purposes

Chad Barthalamew

The comment on reddit about all those people using DOI was deleted and I wonder if it’s because someone in this patreon heard this and realized their trolling folly.

Chad Barthalamew

Are the DEA in the drugs circle jerk?

E Lee

Yes I remember thinking this does not bare well when I watched a vice doc about that pink cocain stuff. Could well have been Hamilton that made that actually. It was very ‘vice’….

rabidreject

Absolutely monumental to hear a an expert (in the context of judicial theatrics) on drugs state in a court of law that drugs should be legal. Not only that, but to have her position respected by a judge INTERNAL TO THE DEA is astonishing. I wish I could have witnessed it myself. I hope this inspires more scientists to come out and state their honest opinion for the record. Very grateful to have you there to record and report this, Hamilton.

Cameron Mitchell

What doesn't make sense to me is the DEA using Reddit and Erowid as sources yet never presenting any drug experience as positive ever.

Helmer

Al Pacino Scarface haha

Miningav

How do they even know that the DOI party was in the US? What if this DOI party were thrown in Antartica? Would that matter to the DEA?

Ericaceous

I would guess that he is critical of those whose opinions/values/tactics align with Nese.

Ericaceous

This does seem kinda tin foil-y based on Hamilton's reporting. If anything, it is clear that the DEA is just incompetent and irrational and views any drugs 'bad' and there is no clear rhyme or reason to their scheduling actions. The idea that they target drugs with some logical specificity seems unlikely, and even more unlikely that someone is pulling the strings of the DEA to go after any drugs with analgesic effects... If the implication is that DOI might supplant traditional opiate prescribing practices, I think that is very tin foily indeed.

Ericaceous

Not experienced with stims, so I found DOC to be very intense, but still quite enjoyable. Deep cleaned my entire house and still had plenty of energy to go for a bike ride and meet up with some friends.

Hank

Dont see that anyone noticed this, but I believe that the main point of DEA interest in DOI was revealed here: Dr.Jaster's study pointing that DOI reduced the abuse potential of opioids. This is so far the only instance where we can see that there's a party that can be directly affected by DOI's unregulation. Dont want to get into thin-foily territory, but the knowledge of this "feature" of DOI made public, might be the incentive on whoever pulled DEAs strings to make them move on it. Edit: I confirm my suspicions with the Day3 dispatch and the discussion of DOI's analgesic properties. As soon as research on the potential use of DOIs in opioids realm, the DEA jumped on it.

Alejandro C.

These are incredible Hamilton very eye opening to the nonsensical nature of these scheduling

avery maynard

the reddit/karma bit...truly mad.

Ruairi Murphy

A perfect example of why criminalization does the opposite of what the DEA wants it to do.

Arylcycloscopy

I’m only half way through but this is hilarious! What a bizarre country you live in. I live in Scotland (marginally less bizarre), and I’m so far only interested in the more mainstream psychedelics (for professional purposes as a psychotherapist, obvs.) Only a small piece of chocolate for lunch? I hope it was high cocoa content and raw…. Hamilton, you should do stand up comedy!

Sarah

I liked DOB in small quantities (1 mg or less), even liked DOC, but the iodo compounds seem to feel more toxic, e.g. 2-CI has little of the sensory sparkle of 2-CB. That goes in spades for the NBOMe versions. I'm extrapolating of course, but I'd be willing to bet DOI is harsher than related compiunds....

Steven

I’ve been absolutely loving this dispatch series. What an absurd, chaotic, and fascinating mess. Thank you so much for uploading. Really excited for the next one.

gossamer

Hamilton, interested what you think of Alaina Jastar and her relationship with Nese Devenot? I saw them speak together this September at the European Behavioral Pharmacocology Society Biennial Meeting in Banff, Canada. Their talk seemed very much oriented around defending Psymposia’s criticism/advocacy around MAPS/Lykos and MDMA-assisted psychotherapy.

Robert Mallett

They are both the most prominent and influential drug journalists of their time I’d say

taylor gautreaux

I can truly feel that this means a lot, and trust me I’m pissed and saddened by what is happening, the current state of the world is to ridiculous to be caring about fucking DOI and DOC this is a complete shitshow and it’s a fucking kangaroo court that cites Reddit shitposts to get something banned, but just know there will always be people fighting for the right for cognitive liberty, keep up the good fight against barriers and breaking norms and keep us updated. Much Love -TNAS

Adam

In one of the pods with Mike Cunningham I believe he says DOC is fantastic.

taylor gautreaux

Damn. "Tuci" is doing such a public disservice to 2C-B.

Hank

Please interview Dr. Jaster! And maybe inquire about her relationship status

stalorne

Would really be unfortunate if someone posted about the DEA in that thread then the DEA was asked about the post in court.

Oslo

Yknow, it would be really unfortunate if someone were to reply to that Reddit thread and say they saw thousands of DEA agents imbibing DOI at a gathering of sorts. And it would be even more unfortunate if the DEA were then asked about that comment in court. Would really be unfortunate to happen.

Oslo

The DOC concentrations listed (especially in blood and brain) are indicative of a high dose of DOC, but they are not necessarily in the immediate lethal range based on general estimates of fatal doses. Guy might’ve had Hep C.... Hard to say without reference to health records & substance usage..etc..

Bushy Haired Stranger

Could it be a subtle way to refer to a woman's posterior, referencing the line from Heat?

Burke Palmer

These have been an absolutely fantastic listen. Thank you for being there and reporting on all of this, Hamilton. Your wry commentary is, as always, informational, timely, and amusing. The most poignant moment for me (aside from Dr. Jaster's frank honesty) was the DEA agents bursting into laughter at the question of whether any use of DOI/DOC counts as misuse. That presumption of guilt and illegality appears to me to be fundamental to the ethos of the DEA, and as such thoroughly discredits their capacity to look at these problems rationally. Perhaps the judge will surprise me. Anyway, looking forward to the next one!

Brian Bolan

So the options for "Al Pacino moment" are literal Satan or a man being blackmailed to defend someone they hate. Interesting.

Hamilton Morris

I think I would like to try some DOC or DOI to see what all this fuss is about.

Jeff

For better or worse this is the best entertainment I’ve had in weeks and that’s saying a lot as an American citizen. Have you considered that you might be the star of Season 2 of Jury Duty? Because this reads like a gotcha satire

myguymikey

I got teary just hearing you convey Dr Jaster’s honesty. Wow. I’d like to post in more detail but must go to work.. but I think this case is weirdly symbolic of where we are at today. Amongst all the absurd injustice and demented ways of thinking, there are still powerful glimmers of hope. The DEA are not going to come out of this looking good even to perhaps some of their own here. And for good reason. It’s becoming increasingly obvious in these kinds of trials that they have no interest in preventing addiction, and even look at addicts or drug users as a kind of enemy of law enforcement. If they did, they would be busy educating people about drugs instead of villifying them. God bless you Hamilton. Thank you for keeping us posted on all of this and making the effort to attend the trials. I am enjoying the evening updates very much.. despite moments of profound frustration.

willows

Thank you Hamilton and thank you Dr. Alaina M. Jaster! 🫡

Benjamin Bryant

Clown show ensues

M

I don't understand how it isn't obvious that anyone can post anything, true or not, on Reddit. How are Reddit posts being considered to be legitimate sources of information in a court case? This is absurd.

Brian

i’ve been reflecting on this over the hours since listening - it’s shocking that a single Reddit comment (the ‘DOI gathering’ one) could potentially be the reason gov legislation swings one way and not the other. I mean, ffs!

nickbaba

I am really struggling with out current reality. When email chains became popular I constantly had to tell people to not send me stupid emails and to actually read and use basic logic before forwarding to the masses. We shouldn’t be responsible for pointing out the obvious to the so called experts. It’s exhausting. Why people will believe something that takes so little effort to disprove is just mind boggling. People who understand Reddit know how ridiculous it is to use Reddit as a source. I have a HS education and these people have real degrees.

Monica Mendez

I was toying with the idea of doing a “Dear DEA…” post on r/psychonaut, but this is a much better idea. As long as everyone in the thread can behave and not post dumb shit that will ultimately work against us. If you end up making the post link it here and I’ll def participate!

Ryan Campbell

As aggravating and preposterous as these hearings have been it’s refreshing to have you reporting on them. As always thank you for your contributions and journalistic integrity. We’re living vicariously through you.

Ryan Campbell

My beloved Reddit. How is it we live in a time where experts don’t understand the difference between opinions and facts. Opinion forums should not be used a facts. Why didn’t they bring up the average age of a Reddit user? I feel like we should start our own thread on Reddit discussing the absurdity of these hearings. I have a few throwaway accounts. Thank you Hamilton for all your hard work and dedication you are very inspiring to me.

Monica Mendez

oh wow!

jennifer

The world is so absurd and seems dumber than ever right now, its funny but makes me pretty scared as well lol

Brad

“…And Justice For All” is the Al Pacino lawyer movie, just in case anyone was wondering about that. Coming back in the edit to say if it is this movie the DEA lawyer was referring to, that would be pretty interesting since the whole basis of the movie is Pacino being blackmailed to defend someone who he hates.

Kelly Rienerth

Al Pacino in Heat was the dirty cop with the heavy cocaine habit tasked with investigating everyone's favorite sexy honorable criminal Robby DeNiro.

Pvt. Idaho

ugh!

jennifer

I'm so compelled to change user names to MikeHuntz420 just in case

DreamStone

Hamilton the modern day Hunter S Thompson too weird to live

Ari Givony

They interpreted Liam Payne taking “tuci” as being 2C-I and then, after correction, 2C-B

Hamilton Morris

truly excellent work HM - this is both utterly fascinating and hair-raisingly unbelievable. The parent-teacher meeting comment part actually caused my jaw to drop.

nickbaba

I always find it funny when they read people’s forum usernames in court. I remember sniggering at this when I had a trial…

rabidreject

So did they misinterpret Liam Payne as taking tucibi vs 2CB? It's my understanding these are very much not the same thing.

Calum Murray

It’s scary how much ‘expert witnesses’ have slipped when you remember Shulgin used to be one…

rabidreject

Does a post's karma really define it's merit your honour? Saul Goodman type shenanigans, I love it.

Tyler Wood

Really enjoying these Hamilton ❤️

Aidan

That was amazing. Hyped for tomorrow’s dispatch!

Oscar Graham

I really hope the audio from this hearing is officially released some day. I really wanna hear that "do you know what shitposting is?" audio

Armchair Idiot

I really enjoy this podcast format! It does not necessarily need to be a grand interview with a hermit from the psychedelic/chem community 😅 The knowledge sharing & communication of your ideas and reflections is also highly valuable to those of us who don't have sufficient time to stay up to date with the latest news in the "psychoactive sphere"! Thanks :)

Alex Deleeck

Love the reporting on this!

Octopappa

https://doi.org/10.1093/jat/bku087 The toxicology report about the case of a 37 yo man dying next to a copy of "Psychedelic Chemistry".

p4nix

I listened to several hours of podcasts hosted by professional comedians today. I audibly-laughed SEVERAL more times just listening to notes from a DEA court hearing. Wow. Thanks again, Hamilton!

Jeffrey Stokes

Wow! The post-truthiness of it all. “Democratic” legal process, or neoliberal ritual?

Kd

what kind of pizza did you have?

Armchair Idiot

Ignoring all potential consequences, this is absurdly funny. Just like the rest of the world.

p4nix

I know, I reuploaded the fixed audio and then it deleted the entire post. Looking into recovering the comments, but if not the post is corrected at least.

Hamilton Morris

Day 1 seems to be missing now?

ogon bio

Wow. Props to Dr. Alaina Jaster. It makes me very happy to hear such things.

Thor Correia

The DOI cognitive flexibility Reddit thread for anyone interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/Psychonaut/comments/1g2j0mv/littleknown_psychedelic_doi_found_to_have_a/

Alex Deleeck

Thankful to Dr.Jastor.

Bushy Haired Stranger

[Insert "First time?" meme here.]

CSN

Adam

There's gotta be a back story about the yacht...

Brian

https://catalog.data.gov/dataset/nflis

Chip Beckstead