Interesting idea - do good dubs make anime into classics?
Added 2017-09-20 16:17:26 +0000 UTCI've been thinking about this a fair bit recently - are dubs a defining factor in what we consider to be classics? Aside from genre progenitors like Gundam and Hokuto no Ken that came out when you *had* to watch fan subs to watch most anime, most things considered to be classics by Western fans like Bebop, Eva, Dragonball, Akira, GiTS, FMA, etc. Were all given solid dubs and wide releases, either in theatres or through channels like Adult Swim. And the most popular current anime are all things that have been released on Netflix or aired on TV, like attack on titan, or one punch man. What do you guys think? Is this a topic worth exploring in more depth?
Comments
good job
James Aponte
2018-10-26 08:14:38 +0000 UTCOver 9000 makes anything an instant classic.
Alyx the Okay
2018-05-24 18:06:37 +0000 UTCTotally. I love Dubs and all the work that goes into them, hell nowadays the dub can actually make a show more memorable, like My First Girlfriend is a Gal. That show is bad but the dub makes a lot more watchable to me.
TallguyZin
2018-03-09 02:04:31 +0000 UTCI'd say so. The G Gundam dub is one of my favorites, its cheezy and fits the tone. I'd also have to say that FMAB is enhanced by the dub
Andrew DiDomenico
2018-02-26 00:46:12 +0000 UTCIt most definitely helps
DJ Cwittz
2018-01-04 23:56:41 +0000 UTCI think the dub is what can tie you to that anime. When i watched the new episodes of dragonball super, and heard the original voice of goku, all I could think was "This isn't the show of my childhood." When I go back and hear the goku i grew up with all i can think is "oh baby. Yep. That's solid nostalgia." it might be because of specifically nostalgia purposes, but who the voice actor is (and the fact that they sound like an actual male human. looking at nozawa on that one) makes a big difference to me.
Ian Mizer
2017-10-30 18:11:37 +0000 UTCBoku no hero academia is the most recent example of this
Laura Emms
2017-10-07 08:39:13 +0000 UTCI think that the late 90's early 2000's classics were defined by "good" dubs (Evangelion's dub is highkey the worst thing ever) but I think as we moved into the mid 2000's with the birth of the Internet era I think the necessitation of dubs was removed and I think that now being firmly in the webgen we can see that dubs aren't as viewed as much as subtitled anime (Based off the stats that I have access to) therefore there has been a shift in paradigm, showcasing subtitled anime to be the largest wave of classics, And there are classic series like Ashita No Joe which have never and likely never will be dubbed
Eva Mathews
2017-09-23 00:28:49 +0000 UTCI can definitely say that for something to be a gateway anime, it needs to be great and have a good dub. I wouldn't introduce a friend of mine through something that's only subbed as that's a barrier to entry for someone used to watching entertainment in their native language. However, I say all this as someone who watches non-seasonal shows dubbed 99% of the time (hell, we have simuldubs now so sometimes I even watch seasonal shows dubbed)
M
2017-09-22 21:05:21 +0000 UTCIt was said that early anime dubbers were workers in radio instead of actors, hence them AHEM quality of some dubs. I'd say it would be an interesting subject to further look into
Gloryavalon6
2017-09-22 02:09:54 +0000 UTCI think you're right. A dub is at least a necessity when it comes to accessibility, and being accessible is pretty much required for something to become a classic. Most people would rather not watch something with subs, so to become a household name it's gotta be dubbed. I don't even think the dub has to be "good" to get popular in the West. Maybe not the best example since I have no idea how popular it actually is, but Street Fighter 2: The Animated Movie had some pretty regrettable voice acting but my brother and I rented it from Blockbuster a good half dozen times at least.
Tim Chaos
2017-09-22 01:18:54 +0000 UTCI think you've already answered your own question. A good dub gets a wider release in Western countries, meaning more visibility and a broader fan appeal. A shitty dub gets ignored at best and outright mocked at worst. So, maybe not a necessity for 'classic' anime, but it definitely helps.
Fraser
2017-09-21 10:19:47 +0000 UTCUh, yes? I mean need I even mention FLCL? That dub was as good, if not better than the Japanese original. It helps that good dubs won't just recreate a character based on the Japanese tones and impression as a 1-1. A good dub injects some new characterization and interpretation. To this day, I still read Sanji's voice in One Piece as having a brooklyn accent because of 4kids. As ridiculous as it sounds, I actually really dislike the 'funimation' dub of many shows because of how standard they are: the delivery is okay but I rarely ever get roused by those types of dubs. Another great example is half the shit out of Hellsing Ultimate: The Major, Alexander, Alucard, Seras, Integra and Walter were all masterfully done and carried tons of character
KYHAHN
2017-09-21 03:57:44 +0000 UTCDragon Ball Z is a great example of a dub being better than a sub. Have you heard King Kai's original Japanese voice actor? In Dr.agon Ball Z and Dragon Ball Super Goku ( a paragon of masculinity) is played by a woman in the original Japanese version. The voice is clearly that of a distinctly feminine woman. It's absolutely ridiculous
The Silver Socialist
2017-09-20 21:14:30 +0000 UTCI don't get the stigma of dubs. There are dubs that are definitely, objectively better than their respective subs. Black Butler being an obvious example.
The Silver Socialist
2017-09-20 21:11:54 +0000 UTCI think dubs give those anime a lot more exposure and thus lead them to becoming classics. Jojo is a classic, but people didn't know of it in the states till after CR got the license, and I think the dub and being on tv really helped. Whenever I talk anime to anyone not in "the know" they talk Inuyusha, Dragonball, or Sailor Moon. I think its worth seeing that gap in the west between the anime explosion and around when Naruto started blowing up.
「E」
2017-09-20 20:04:58 +0000 UTCI think we're at the point where we could consider labeling "cult classics" within internationally popular anime. Star Wars is a classic and was wildly popular at the box office. Firefly is also rightly considered a classic by many (myself included) but not due to widespread popularity, but rather purely due to its steady but smaller popularity over time. The difference being that while both are classics, Firefly is more accurately described as a cult classic. As a result of the ever growing popularity of anime into the "mainstream," I think it would be worth exploring whether popular shows that are well dubbed are significantly more popular on average than ones that are subbed only. I suspect that will be the case, as I think the international anime community has grown to a large enough size that a vast number of more casual watchers likely only watch dubbed anime (or tend to), especially due to Netflix as a massively popular medium. I don't know where you might find numbers to that end though. I definitely think that this is a topic worth exploring in great detail.
Sower of Systems
2017-09-20 19:12:11 +0000 UTCAdding to it, one of the reasons that Sword Art Online is one of the most popular animes is that there is an english dub, not a good one, but the average person can easily watch it because they don't need to worry about subtitles which is one reason that keeps people from fully going into the anime community or having a subscription to Crunchyroll.
Jacob Curley
2017-09-20 17:52:38 +0000 UTCI think in the past this was very much true, As you said, shows like Bebop are where they are in the west because of their incredible dubs that only made their shows accessible and consumable but also enhanced the show for westerners. For me, Steve Blum will always be the quintessential Spike Spiegal just as I can't listen to Holland from Eureka Seven without Crispin Freeman (no offense to Keiji Fujiwara as I love his work too). This is certainly even more true for Dragonball where the abridged series for it has the abridgers mostly mimicking the voices and tones of the actual dubs as that's how we identify these characters, I don't think dubs are as impactful nowadays with the advent of fast internet and streaming that gives us access to subbed anime. But a few good dubs could very well still be strong gateway animes for newer audiences which I would argue is the reason many animes become classics over here anyways. All in all, I think you might be on to something, and at worse, this is a case of misconstruing correlation with causation. Very interesting though regardless and definitely something I think should be explored.
Martin Tran
2017-09-20 17:02:07 +0000 UTCYou might want to look into European dubs and how they effected popularity too. Before the compilation movies Mobile Suit Gundam was a bigger hit in Italy than Japan in part due to a widely aired Italian dub in 1980-1981.
Christopher Patten
2017-09-20 16:54:09 +0000 UTCI think a more interesting idea is exploring how the experience of watching a dub can be different from watching the original. I'm not even talking about radically rewritten shows like Samurai Pizza Cats or Shin Chan, but shows like Dragon Ball Z and Pokemon, which feel like a different shows when you're watching them dubbed because of subtle changes in characterization because of how different the performances are and how some of the nuances of the original dialogue have been lost in the rewritten scripts.
LumRanmaYasha
2017-09-20 16:44:50 +0000 UTCWorth doing, but let's also think of counter-examples: things we'd consider classic but have no dub or a bad dub. I'd propose "Madoka Magica" as a classic with a not-great-at-best dub; it'll be on everyone's top-10-of-the-decade list, but while its dub is readily available on Netflix, it lacks a certain power that the original Japanese had (and I'm saying this as a dub fan). Probably too soon to tell what else from the 2000s will be considered classics, but this is the decade where sub-only became a mainstream option for many, thanks to Crunchyroll, so I think we'll see others emerge in this category as "it's a classic, but you probably want to watch the sub."
invalidname
2017-09-20 16:38:51 +0000 UTCIt's an interesting idea, but I don't think good dubs are a requirement for an anime to be a classic. Those shows you mentioned were classics to begin with, the dubs just increased their visibility to western audiences. In the late 90s and early 00s, most people got into anime because they saw a dubbed version of a show on tv, and since most people saw these shows when they were younger, they had a more lasting, formative impact. Classic anime that were never given dubs were never aired on television so people didn't get introduced to them until much later in their fandom.
LumRanmaYasha
2017-09-20 16:38:27 +0000 UTCI really think so, with many people I try to refer an anime to I make sure that it's on netflixs so they can easily watch it and most of the animes on netflixs have dubs with it.
Jacob Curley
2017-09-20 16:37:03 +0000 UTCI think they can but it's a case by case thing. Like what about shows arguably elevated by satirical subs like Samurai Pizza Cats or Ghost Stories? Or something like Baccano! which is able to have a more "authentic" dub because the English speaking actors are more familiar with the accents the characters would have had than their Japanese counterparts. Others shows like Sgt Frog arguably NEED a dub with heavy changes to the script because its so laden with puns that you wouldn't be able to get the joke across quickly enough to a viewer watching the show. Then there's nostalgia goggles - I'm in my thirties and my so-called "gateway" was the dub of Yoroiden Samurai Troopers, Ronin Warriors, which is terrible by today's standards but I can't bring myself to dislike (it would absolutely be on my list of influential anime like the one you did for your 300,00 sub special). This might be a good time to collaborate with Explanation Point, who has already done a similar video on the value of dubs (but of course that's something you two would need to work out he just seems like a good fit for this essay). Best of luck with this one and I'm looking forward to seeing the results :D
Jesse Marie MacDougall
2017-09-20 16:34:14 +0000 UTCSide point - do you think this causes regional differences in what is even considered classic in the first place? Not to disparage anything, but I'm wondering if certain things westerners consider classic are just run of the mill for an audience who was exposed to everything on air at the time. Some part of me recognizes that globalization being small-scale at the time implies that we'd only even GET stuff that was a hit over there, but I'd love to see if there's any sort of metric to suggest differences in opinion over some of these.
Breadgehog
2017-09-20 16:31:37 +0000 UTCI think it is an interesting topic, certainly well dubbed anime can have a broader appeal to the western market. In the past when I watched dubs a good dub would resonate more than a great sub. Another aspect that would be interesting to look at in the perspective of dubs is localization vs translation.
Hezmana
2017-09-20 16:29:16 +0000 UTCAbsolutely. You need to do a Weebcast about it, so you can argue endlessly with a certain "21st Century Digital Boy" how dubs are very important to the anime industry - especially abridged dubs
Kenny Varnes
2017-09-20 16:26:51 +0000 UTCBack in the day? Absolutely was a factor, especially in the case of "stealth" anime like Digimon or Pokemon, maybe even Sailor Moon or Cardcaptors. I think it's something that's been less prominent as subbed anime becomes more normalized (with more legal ways to consume it) but I think it definitely applies to a lot of things people consider classic.
Breadgehog
2017-09-20 16:25:20 +0000 UTCNot sure if correlation = causation here, but it is an interesting idea! Personally, at least with OPM a few of my dub loving friends loved it despute actually preferring the Japanese voices for once.
James Galizio
2017-09-20 16:25:10 +0000 UTC
