FULL DISCUSSION - Star Trek S2E18 - Up the Long Ladder
Added 2024-03-15 12:05:01 +0000 UTC
Comments
Sincw you asked, I LOVE the discussion videos. I also liked it when they were part of the reaction video but I often (though not exclusively) watch them when they're released the next day on YouTube and I really enjoy knowing that there will be another piece to arrive in a day when I do that (when I'm too stoked to see what you have to say - like with this one - I jump right to Patron though). I definitely enjoy you engaging in a deeper conversation about what you saw and also discussing Patron comments. Its one of the things that sets your channel apart from many other reactors who just tap out a minute or two after their reaction is over.
Knights Who Say Sledge
2024-04-03 15:28:56 +0000 UTCthe author made it clear that was a pro-choice line, though the show did get flack for just straight up killing the clones with no discussion or arguement
David Kunard
2024-03-22 23:25:42 +0000 UTCAgain, everyone's said this, but its basically a different show starting with season 3 where there barely any bad epiodes
David Kunard
2024-03-22 23:23:19 +0000 UTCThe one thing the sex scene did was establish the irish woman was not sexually coinservative, as the end implied the polyamorous marriages were something every one was ok with it. This was originally supposed to be as story abour immigration, but the author admits that got lost in rewrites and budet saving. DS9 does a somewhat similar episode featuring immigration that is done much better (but DS9 is the best of treks, though heavily depends on the world building of the previous two)
David Kunard
2024-03-22 23:17:49 +0000 UTCFrom “The Fifty-Year Mission: The Next 25 Years: From The Next Generation to J. J. Abrams: The Complete, Uncensored, and Unauthorized Oral History of Star Trek” by MARK A. ALTMAN and EDWARD GROSS RONALD D. MOORE (producer, Star Trek: The Next Generation) “The second season was pretty shaky. I didn't think it was a rip-off as much as I thought it didn't quite know what it wanted to be. It seemed to lack focus and coherent storytelling. And there were episodes I hated. That episode with the Irish, "Up the Long Ladder," I loathed. I remember feeling like the show didn't know what it was. I was afraid it was going to get can-celed, because I thought it was kind of weak, but it didn't, obviously, and kept chugging along. I was looking forward to it getting better. The first two seasons are kind of unwatchable.”
Shatner's Cigarette
2024-03-21 20:32:59 +0000 UTC@Steven Johnson No, they do not have to "tonally match." Life doesn't "tonally match." Commander Riker cooked those eggs only Worf liked, and nobody complained then about that scene which didn't match the "tone" of the rest of the episode at all. I'm sure most of life on the Enterprise is pretty mundane, and I like it when the writers show us some of that. It contrasts well with the excitement of the unknown that serving aboard the Enterprise is known for.
Jovet
2024-03-19 05:12:45 +0000 UTCAgree! I didn’t like the idea initially but I love it now. I hope you keep it.
Crankygrandma
2024-03-19 03:38:46 +0000 UTCSo, everyone, keep your comments to 2 1/2 paragraphs so Josh and Alex read every. single. one. That's what he said, right?
Steven Johnson
2024-03-17 16:27:31 +0000 UTCAgreed on all points. By the time you get to "Enterprise" they were literally hiring writers best known for "Baywatch" and "Baywatch Nights."
Steven Johnson
2024-03-17 16:26:57 +0000 UTC(Because the writers use big words to sound smart. It makes their scripts go.)
Steven Johnson
2024-03-17 05:00:44 +0000 UTC....Yes, but these things have to at least tonally match. Like if someone had a bad fish meal and was running around with the acheing shits in the midst of a battle for survival, that wouldn't exactly help the A plot.
Steven Johnson
2024-03-17 04:59:46 +0000 UTCWorf 😆 was using my mic 🎙️
Philbot
2024-03-16 18:48:45 +0000 UTCThen what's a quay? :ducks:
Jovet
2024-03-16 16:53:23 +0000 UTCAnd 4, 5, 6, 7....
Monty Crawford
2024-03-16 16:48:58 +0000 UTCThe discussions + patreon takes is my favorite part of this channel. Please don't stop doing them especially now, because come season 3 there are a ton of episodes that you could spend hours talking about.
Captain Proton
2024-03-16 13:20:38 +0000 UTCA wharf is like a jetty, except that where a jetty runs perpendicular to the shore and protrudes into the waterway, a wharf runs parallel to the shoreline. Hope that helps.
Regan
2024-03-16 09:53:25 +0000 UTCMore meat and potatoes, please!
Ian Ramsey
2024-03-16 08:52:09 +0000 UTCHaha! I am Austrian. When I was in Dublin for the first time I met an old guy at a pub. I said to him I believe Ireland and Austria have much in common. We are both small catholic countries. We have both a big mostly protestant neighbour who speaks the same language. Both of us were conquered and opressed by this big neighbour. He said with a smile: "I've got my problems, I leave yours to you." Your comment reminds me of that kind of irish humour.
Sam Langanke
2024-03-16 07:50:58 +0000 UTCWhat is a "wharf"?
Sam Langanke
2024-03-16 07:37:05 +0000 UTCMine don’t quite sync up but I’m close enough that I don’t miss anything.
Philbot
2024-03-16 07:06:53 +0000 UTCThe space irish episode reaction is landing suspiciously close to Saint Patrick's Day...
Ian Westcott
2024-03-16 07:02:58 +0000 UTCWasn’t Pulaski‘s excuse for wharf, just as embarrassing as fainting? I mean, it practically is still fainting just for different reasons..
Philbot
2024-03-16 06:50:36 +0000 UTCOh Josh, I think you'd really Like Lorerunner's TNG videos he goes over the production process & reviews every episode
Justin DiBari
2024-03-16 04:54:59 +0000 UTCAbsolutely keep the discussion videos. I love your reactions, but the discussions even moreso. I like hearing yours and the patrons views on the characters, the world-building, and all the behind the scenes stuff. Also, I'm kinda glad these last few season 2 stories are mediocre at best...it'll make ST 5: The Final Frontier seem much more paletable by comparison.
StealthMomo
2024-03-16 03:05:01 +0000 UTC@Target Audience LOL :grin: I try to split up my Patron comments into smaller bites. Especially when porking is involved.
Jovet
2024-03-16 01:34:46 +0000 UTCThe Uncut Reaction for immediate reactions and brief comments. The Full Discussion for the thorough reaction and commentary.
Jovet
2024-03-16 01:32:28 +0000 UTCA couple days ago at work I finished listening to an audio book in which about the last third takes place in Ireland in the late 1800s, with the reader doing a lot of Irish voices and dialects. The Irish voices here reminds me a lot of that book. The book also included spitting into the hand before shaking to seal a bargain, so...accuracy?
KatWithAttitude
2024-03-16 01:30:58 +0000 UTC@Steven Johnson They were not happy with the story "pivoting" so much. I think it's perfectly fine that Worf's illness had zero to do with the rest of the story... things just happen in everyday life. Wars start, romances end, and Klingons faint.
Jovet
2024-03-16 01:29:35 +0000 UTCIf everyone didn’t write 3 paragraphs we’d be able to read more of them in the video 😵💫
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-03-16 00:42:23 +0000 UTCThe discussion videos are good, but maybe a few more patron takes, especially on the divisive or meme-able episodes.
JGoss
2024-03-16 00:40:59 +0000 UTC@Derek Orr Metaphor.
Jovet
2024-03-15 23:27:37 +0000 UTCGene didn't know either! haha Patrick *might* have.
Jovet
2024-03-15 23:18:55 +0000 UTC@Derek Orr See also: Barbary slave trade
Jovet
2024-03-15 23:17:36 +0000 UTCCrusher at ep 18 was way less interesting to me than Pulaski was. Season 2 has so many challenges bts so I think she did the best with her character's on-boarding that was possible. And unfortunately in this crap episode she does shine. NONSPOILER ahead: One thing I noticed when rewatching Season 2 of TNG with you is that compared to ALL of Trek after 2005 is there are never words like "anachronistic" or "hegemony" or ''cogent" anywhere in their writing. The narratives are simpler and easier to follow and not written by accomplished authors or science-fiction professionals. As terrible as this episode is, it's still smarter than what passes as Star Trek today imo.
Michael Nemo
2024-03-15 23:05:32 +0000 UTCThe discussion videos can be as long and detailed as you choose, just ten minutes for an episode like this, but please keep them. There will be episodes to come which require deep analysis.
PFCoffey
2024-03-15 22:26:24 +0000 UTCGeez guys will you let poor Riker get a little
Scarpad’s Domain
2024-03-15 22:14:10 +0000 UTCThis is great to hear, thank you
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-03-15 22:08:37 +0000 UTCAgreed
Andrea R
2024-03-15 21:54:28 +0000 UTCYou don’t say? Never heard of it.
Smear Campaign
2024-03-15 21:48:40 +0000 UTCPlease never stop doing the discussion videos, I have seen the episodes so many times and seeing you react to them is great but I think the real "meat and potatoes" so to speak come from your discussions. They give you the ability to draw out your thoughts and ideas about or inspired by the episodes that you can't really do while watching and reacting (lest everyone criticize you for talking over dialogue lol).
Tristan Rose
2024-03-15 21:45:20 +0000 UTCNo I dont think thats a fair comparison at all. Code of Honour stings far worse because of how worse African Americans where treated in the 1980s and even through to today. That is not even remotely the same case for the Irish in the same timeframe. Irish as white people enjoy huge amounts of privilege…despite some silly Irish people drink and eat potatoes jokes….meanwhile african Americans live a more dangerous and shorter lifespan in America today and are routinely discriminated against
Derek Orr
2024-03-15 21:43:10 +0000 UTCI mean a large part of ireland is still very much british and part of the UK
Derek Orr
2024-03-15 21:38:21 +0000 UTCI just realized there is a neat Picard season 2 tie in with this episode
Derek Orr
2024-03-15 21:28:58 +0000 UTCThe sex with Riker was just like Okona having casual sex with random crew members …just showing how not prudish they are in the 24th century
Derek Orr
2024-03-15 21:24:06 +0000 UTCMore like Polyamorous than polygamy
Derek Orr
2024-03-15 21:22:53 +0000 UTCMeh I dont see the british part
Derek Orr
2024-03-15 21:21:40 +0000 UTCI’m surprised you guys didnt like it this much. Its not the best episode but its far from the worst
Derek Orr
2024-03-15 21:20:41 +0000 UTCI would say that all these points are valid but also just as speculative as its not addressed on screen.
Julie Carter
2024-03-15 20:55:00 +0000 UTCWhile "Up The Long Ladder" isn't the greatest episode in fact in this season its one i usually skip as i have favorite episodes in each season like The Measure Of A Man, A Matter of Honor and Episode 21. I rewatch all of my least favorite episodes for yall because its interesting to get different perspective on them. I love these discussions because its interesting to get yalls thoughts on em and to see what the other viewers have to say. Keep up the awesome job guys i cant wait for yall to get to Star Trek Voyager (one of my personal favs) i know it will be awhile before that series starts up i am looking forward to reviewing star trek in its entirety.
GamingHour2018
2024-03-15 20:29:13 +0000 UTCI was just thinking that, the Bringloidi are VERY MUCH more like TOS-style elements than TNG.
JD Nevesytrof
2024-03-15 20:25:03 +0000 UTChaha love it worf going along with it lol can tell he doesnt know it
Narnman
2024-03-15 20:18:59 +0000 UTCi think most here can appreciate the replicator drinking session
Narnman
2024-03-15 20:16:08 +0000 UTCGlad to hear it! That said.. don't feel like you've programmed yourselves into a corner. I support any change made for your mental and/or youtube wellbeing
James Bottas
2024-03-15 20:10:59 +0000 UTCThose are all fair points. Based on the feedback we got here, the discussions aren’t going away. Just a vibe check of how people are feeling about them and it turns out people are liking them which is good.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-03-15 19:59:06 +0000 UTCThe Irish sounding music makes me shudder and expect Finnegan to turn up and fight Kirk again
AzoriusMage
2024-03-15 19:58:15 +0000 UTCit seems the more 'traditional people' here are supposed to be the irish while the more 'sophisticated' are british who look down upon them
Narnman
2024-03-15 19:51:09 +0000 UTCLook, I'm not going to die on the hill of defending "Up the Long Ladder" but... the idea that the two groups belonged in two different episodes defeats the entire purpose. They're supposed to be complete opposites who complete one another. I agree that it's a bit jarring as far as tone and esthetic for the episode. The other point about the women not being given a choice... They were given a choice. Picard said anyone who wasn't willing to go along could be dropped off and have whatever life they want. As wild as the idea of being in medically mandated polygamous relationship is, the episode can't be knocked for not giving a choice when there was indeed a choice given. Are the separate discussion videos at risk of going away? I'm sorry to hear that. If you do go back to single video format, I hope the length of the discussion stays just as long. I like that they're as meaty as they are
James Bottas
2024-03-15 19:41:35 +0000 UTCThanks. We definitely wouldn’t combine them as is. We would just spend the time doing something else, but it seems many people here enjoy these which is good to know
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-03-15 19:03:02 +0000 UTCAs to whether you keep this separate discussion format or add it back into the reaction videos, I am sorry I won't be much help. I honestly don't care and am fine with either format. I just don't want to see either one go away completely.
Collin Freeman
2024-03-15 19:00:25 +0000 UTCI still think Josh and Alex should head out for a meal, while they leave improvised dummy stand-ins while that episode plays out on their TV. Life is just too short.
Numinous2019
2024-03-15 18:51:24 +0000 UTCYou're witnessing the cluster-f**k that was the writing room for this and all other TV shows back in 1988-1989, right up to the end of the season, due in no small part to the writer's strike at the time. Some big hits, but some big misses, too. Can't hit a homerun all the time, even in the later seasons. This is also a big part why many fans (including me) don't like the first 2 seasons as much as the rest of the series. A) they had to find their footing, and B) the writing was more uneven compared to later seasons.
Collin Freeman
2024-03-15 18:50:10 +0000 UTCThis episode is garbage. There's an interesting commentary on rights and cloning, but its all undone by everything else which is done so terribly.
Ca$hWednesday
2024-03-15 18:50:10 +0000 UTCFrom what Memory Alpha says of the story, Ms. Snodgrass was trying to make commentary about the current state of immigration policy at the time. e.g. the Mariposans looking down on the Bringloidi.
Jovet
2024-03-15 18:48:36 +0000 UTCThe discussion take videos are exactly what I mean when I mention the value we're getting from you guys, so I beseech you, keep doing them.
JD Nevesytrof
2024-03-15 18:48:16 +0000 UTCThese discussions are my favorite part. I think you guys are great at tossing ideas back-and-forth.
Just another Red Shirt
2024-03-15 18:48:15 +0000 UTC@Target Audience This is Alex talking, innit? :grin:
Jovet
2024-03-15 18:46:55 +0000 UTCWell stated! Bravo!
Jovet
2024-03-15 18:45:58 +0000 UTC@Target Audience Be yourselves first and foremost. The "audience" will appreciate that and glom on, or it won't. Like Picard said in the pilot, "If we're going to be damned, let's be damned for who we really are."
Jovet
2024-03-15 18:44:43 +0000 UTCAgreed 100%!
Jovet
2024-03-15 18:43:30 +0000 UTCSurvival is at stake for both cultures and societies. Their mutual benefits are obvious.
Jovet
2024-03-15 18:43:04 +0000 UTC@StonyD Well, a lot of the time the Q are (self) described as "omnipotent" but they are not.
Jovet
2024-03-15 18:42:00 +0000 UTC😂😂😂. Now it makes sense!
Crankygrandma
2024-03-15 18:21:23 +0000 UTCYes. The episode overall was dehumanizing
Crankygrandma
2024-03-15 18:20:20 +0000 UTCIn the Child the whole scene probably took less than a minute, and got a lot across. This was clunky, heavy handed, badly written. And at odds with the normal trek struggle and thoughtfulness on issues such as this
Crankygrandma
2024-03-15 18:18:28 +0000 UTCMelinda Snodgrass later related why this entire thing happened: "It was intended to be a commentary about immigration, because I hate the current American policy. I wanted it to be something that says sometimes those outsiders you think are so smelly and wrong-colored, can bring enormous benefits to your society because they bring life and energy. That's what I was going for. Now my boss, at the time, was Maury Hurley, who is a major Irishman and leads the Saint Patrick's Day parade. When I was describing to him what I wanted to do, I was trying to come up with an analogy, and I said it was like a little village of Irish tinkerers, and he loved it so much he made me make them Irish tinkerers. I said okay, and that's how it came about."
JD Nevesytrof
2024-03-15 18:10:50 +0000 UTCThanks. I’d like to think of it as constantly trying to improve, but I understand we shouldn’t implement too much change all the time. I appreciate that you enjoy the way it is
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-03-15 18:07:57 +0000 UTCThis reminds me, if a male birth control pill doesn’t exist by then, humans have truly failed
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-03-15 18:03:14 +0000 UTC“It may be the worst Star Trek episode I’ve ever seen in my life”. Yes. It certainly was the worst I’ve seen on so many levels. You are right the clone stuff was a heavy handed abortion reference. Like a big car bumper sticker and with the same depth. This is Star Trek. Wouldn’t their at least be discussion of whether or not this indeed life? Is it independent of Riker, despite the wrongness of taking his genes to make it? Is it just undeveloped genetic material? They can end up at the same point but given the way trek is, wouldn’t they consider it? Think of the depth of “a measure of man”. But like the rest of the episode the writing was shallow and they didn’t apparently have time to take any of the ideas and give them depth and connection. The clone issues could have made a good episode with a lot of depth, a lot of “make you think”. But nope. Just more undeveloped ideas badly tossed in a script salad. Interesting themes? Yes, but badly and superficially handled.
Crankygrandma
2024-03-15 17:55:09 +0000 UTCThat last saying is funny. Google says it's "also used to trick foreigners into using a vulgarity" :-D I'm not hugely surprised at the 80s book. Maybe some people think of Ireland as a sort of giant theme park that has nothing beyond its own stereotypes, instead of a real place with real people. (Full disclosure - I don't have any Irish ancestry and have only spent 1 day in Ireland!).
Smear Campaign
2024-03-15 17:54:49 +0000 UTCever heard of condoms? Also that was consensual and would be normal reproduction. He clearly stated that he has nothing against having children and nothing against consensuality. His DNA was stolen for him to be 1:1 cloned and copied. That's very different from having children with a woman from consensual sex. They were assaulted.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-03-15 17:49:29 +0000 UTCI just burst out laughing as I forgot for a moment that there's an even worse episode, and they loathed this one. Might even be good from the perspective of a reaction channel, even though it's abysmal from the perspective of a fan.
Smear Campaign
2024-03-15 17:44:24 +0000 UTCIn the USA, my dad, born in the 1920s to an Irish immigrant family, changed his Irish inflection to get a white collar job. It’s not that long ago even in the USA. I read a British fantasy book written in the 1980s and was jolted by bit character named Paddy that was straight from the nasty stereotype machine…I was floored. Wasn’t that stereotype from the distant past? Apparently it was still around. When American non Irish would celebrate the US version of St Patrick’s day, and be going around saying “Erin go Bragh”, my dad would smile and answer “puga ma hone”. You can google that if you want. Suffice to say my dad had a dash of bitterness (but also kept his sense of humor)
Crankygrandma
2024-03-15 17:35:40 +0000 UTCyes, continue the after reaction reaction discussion.
Monty Crawford
2024-03-15 17:35:07 +0000 UTCBeing unpredictable alone is not the mark of quality, though. You can make something unpredictable by way of making it completely nonsensical.
Steven Johnson
2024-03-15 17:31:14 +0000 UTCMaybe it's just my degenerate mind, but when I started reading "Worf and Pulaski trip absolute balls after drinking the poisoned tea" I thought it was going a completely different direction.
Steven Johnson
2024-03-15 17:30:01 +0000 UTCLove the discussion videos. Please keep them up
Mosquito_Wenzi
2024-03-15 17:23:16 +0000 UTCDanger: Up the Long Ladder may be hazardous to your health. Wear safety glasses.
JGoss
2024-03-15 17:17:05 +0000 UTCYou’re correct of course, but my point was that all customers with Irish names was at risk of having their booking cancelled. They didn’t care if other people with an Irish surname had their holiday ruined. It’s beggars belief when you think of how many people across the business must have been aware that they were doing it and were happy to participate.
Smear Campaign
2024-03-15 17:14:50 +0000 UTCYou guys, Josh and Alex, are CRAZY. This was a fun episode. You guys need to lighten up! lol
Darin Wagner
2024-03-15 17:09:14 +0000 UTCWe have to assume that ALL were given the choice to decide (Freewill) I agree the convos with Pulaski and Worf are character building and great! Only Melinda knows exactly what she was trying to get over... (Abortion/Cloning etc.) This aint the worst episode of season 2.... Keep doing these discussions, I love them.
Andrew Bassey
2024-03-15 16:59:39 +0000 UTCI think the point of Riker and the woman hooking up is the fact he just freely gave away his DNA without hesitation, possibly impregnating her, but then flips out at the idea of being cloned. His genes may end up part of this society after all.
Julie Carter
2024-03-15 16:57:05 +0000 UTCMy best attempt to tie the Worf Is Sick scenes into the rest of the plot: Worf is struck down by a disease -- a biological issue which, if untreated, might prove debilitating. Similarly, the Mariposa Colony's replacative fading is essentially a biological issue (you can only stretch a cell so far) which, if untreated, would eventually prove fatal to them. Worf is offended to have been brought low by something as unsophisticated as an illness typically only contracted by children, just as the Mariposians are disturbed at the prospect of introducing the relatively unsophisticated Bringloidi into their society. The tea ceremony highlights that, with proper preparation, appreciation and caution the blending and sharing of cultures can enrich the experience of all involved. It's a bit of a stretch but it's possible without getting too twisty.
Avaria
2024-03-15 16:56:27 +0000 UTCI always watch the discussion videos and I always appreciate the mixture of humour and insight you both provide.
Numinous2019
2024-03-15 16:46:01 +0000 UTCI'm Irish. I appreciate your comments. It is worth remembering that the Travellor Community in Ireland is considered a distinct ethnic group (formally in legislation). Like every other element in Irish society, Travellers and the rest of us are a mixture of good, bad and indifferent.
Numinous2019
2024-03-15 16:44:26 +0000 UTCThe part of the script they cut should explain all of this: Worf and Pulaski trip absolute balls after drinking the poisoned tea, and the entire episode is all in their head...
StonyD
2024-03-15 16:41:32 +0000 UTClooks like it MIGHT become a possibility in the next decade or so...
Ee'char
2024-03-15 16:39:49 +0000 UTCI'm not disagreeing with your points (which are very well put), but it is possible the clone colony was a separate story concept that was just added to provide 'drama', instead of being developed into its own episode. So its run time prevented any adequate ethical statements. It only served to provide a justification for the two colonies to re-integrate.
Numinous2019
2024-03-15 16:37:30 +0000 UTCThe separate Discussion videos are absolutely necessary. Summing up what you think the moment it stops airing versus time to consider those feelings is very important to a full analysis. I think you two shouldn't second-guess yourselves so much. I understand tweaking trying to find the right mix of what you want and what you think the audience wants. But, you're about to be three seasons into your second Star Trek series. You're there, man. Get comfortable and lock in the format that floats your boat. Your true "target audience" is here for what you got. : )
StonyD
2024-03-15 16:37:27 +0000 UTCSure. But this is in relation to the point that the stereotype-Irish village was "anachronistic" to the 22nd century, as the line stated.
StonyD
2024-03-15 16:28:18 +0000 UTCNot necessarily. There are plenty of horse-drawn buggies out there in 2024. The Amish and Mennonite societies use them a lot. An anachronism would be a 2024 model car in 1761—something that *should* be impossible.
Jovet
2024-03-15 16:22:36 +0000 UTCRegarding the format, when you switched from 1 video per episode to 2, I was skeptical, but I actually really like the format. There's so much to discuss that tagging it onto the end of the reaction can make those videos bloated. Having a separate discussion video gives it space which I love. Hope you keep going with this structure!
Kristina Weber
2024-03-15 16:22:29 +0000 UTCRegarding this episode, I feel like this is one of several episodes Star Trek does that deal with a theme of rural simplicity vs advanced technology. I just wish they had more to say about the contrast. Often it feels more like the writers are wishing for a long vacation or fewer responsibilities rather than actually interrogating the pros and cons of technology-lite vs technology-rich living.
Kristina Weber
2024-03-15 16:21:28 +0000 UTCI only have so many eye-roll emojis to give. 🙄
Jovet
2024-03-15 16:20:41 +0000 UTCIt had been banned on the BBC as well as Irish television station RTÉ
Vina
2024-03-15 15:56:19 +0000 UTC"Anachronistic" means to be outside of its time or place. Like, a horse-drawn buggy on a highway in 2024 would be anachronistic to us.
StonyD
2024-03-15 15:50:15 +0000 UTCPulaski saying the solution is “breeding stock” always gives me the creeps. Dr. Crusher would not have used such dehumanizing terminology.
Benjamin Azure
2024-03-15 15:41:24 +0000 UTCThis is one of my all-time favorite episodes! Pulaski is the prime mover of the story!
Darin Wagner
2024-03-15 15:34:08 +0000 UTC20:55 I watch all of your uncut TNG reactions and discussion videos. It's why I'm here!
Jovet
2024-03-15 15:19:09 +0000 UTC19:00 The ship founded two colonies. The salt-of-the-earth colony got off first, and then the ship went half a light year away and crashed when landing the technological/scientist colony (the planet that became called Mariposa).
Jovet
2024-03-15 15:16:28 +0000 UTCI've heard the abortion comparison for this episode, but I never considered how much it contradicts the ending. I guess it leaves people on both sides of the debate dissatisfied.
Evan Guthrie
2024-03-15 15:16:06 +0000 UTC18:04 You guys surprised me again! I thought you'd enjoy this one a lot more, like I do. Stories that are not completely predictable are a good thing, to me.
Jovet
2024-03-15 15:14:30 +0000 UTC11:02 They're both the same species—human. I am sure you meant two different cultures. Brenna Odell was protesting that it's always the women that have to do all the work of birthing and raising the children. But she likes men and she likes sex, so she's ready for her next man after Riker. (LOL!) ...showing that she doesn't have quite the "moral" high ground over her father she likes to pretend she does.
Jovet
2024-03-15 15:08:13 +0000 UTCBest thing to come out of this is Gene, Michael Dorn, and another guy singing together in the TNG outtakes: https://youtu.be/4NOM-kLfDR8?si=igZ-K6-kmrVN2lk2&t=111
Steven Johnson
2024-03-15 15:03:41 +0000 UTC4:00 Sounds pretty ideal in some circles. LOL!
Jovet
2024-03-15 14:59:52 +0000 UTC🙄
Jovet
2024-03-15 14:58:42 +0000 UTC1:16 I think the fact the episode pivoted several times is actually a GOOD thing! Wanton predictability is boring.
Jovet
2024-03-15 14:57:30 +0000 UTCTruth be told, that's the case with most Star Trek metaphors. Whether its war or any social issue. I love Let That Be Their Last Battlefield, it's great, but let's not kid ourselves, if the racial issues were as simple as pointing out "racism is dumb" we would have been able to get a lot farther with it a lot sooner than we did. And on the flip side of the issue, it's a very callous treatment of life. Just end it. Which is very peculiar given that (I never thought i'd say this...!) The Child actually had the entire crew discussing these issues with at least some element of maturity. Here its almost treated as self evident what the right course is. In the real world it is illegal to clone a human being (not that its impossible to do, we can absolutely do it, animal cloning has been a thing for decades in small laboratory experiments. Anyone remember the sheep commercials from 1999?), but human clones would have human rights, which means Riker *could* be guilty of murder under our current law.
Steven Johnson
2024-03-15 14:57:19 +0000 UTCYeah, Riker is only affected in a very abstract way by the clone, he does not have to carry it to term putting a huge burden on his body and he doesn't have to raise a baby clone for two decades before he's an adult severely affecting his life. If a human pregnancy would end with an adult climbing out of a box ready to get an apartment and a job I don't think many women would chose not to have that "baby".
Phillip Grischa
2024-03-15 14:48:52 +0000 UTCTrue, it’s far from perfect.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-03-15 14:34:43 +0000 UTCThe abortion metaphor with the clones is indeed obvious, but I find it very clumsy. The clone is gestating in a machine and not being a burden on anyone, and Riker's only motive for killing it is that he's offended by its very existence. Not exactly the most compelling metaphor if the intent is a pro-choice message.
Jeff Cornell
2024-03-15 14:15:46 +0000 UTCI don't care. I enjoy this episode. Nothing too crazy going on, just a chill ethical dilemma. I only hate a few episodes out of the whole series, but this one I think is fun. The moment where the guy drinks Warf's Klingon booze always makes me laugh. Is it the best episode ever? No. But I think it's far from the worst.
Clyde Frog
2024-03-15 14:06:57 +0000 UTCThe expressions on your faces say it all!
Glenn Johnson Barnes
2024-03-15 13:28:16 +0000 UTCThe 16th worst episode, according to IMDB. Looked at the production history and says it was meant to be a pro-immigration allegory but it got lost in rewrites. Re: discussions, I watch every time. Reactions only when I think there'll be some value there.
John M.
2024-03-15 13:00:34 +0000 UTCWe get an Irish focused episode and they go and make poor Colm Meaney stand around and watch like a black man viewing a minstrel show. This one ranks up there with "Code of honor" as something that feels like was made 30 years past socially acceptable, even in 1988.
EnigmaticPenguin
2024-03-15 12:58:43 +0000 UTCTo answer your question, I watch the discussions before the reactions. Mostly because it's always interesting to hear someone else's opinions, and you often have a take that I hadn't considered, plus I find the reactions never quite synch up, even though I watch it on Blu-ray too. So, yes, keep the discussions. More interesting to me than the reactions, really (I do watch the cut-down reactions, mind).
Andy Frankham-Allen
2024-03-15 12:53:30 +0000 UTCkeep doing the discussions for sure. I have seen TNG so many times that I don't watch the full reactions to many episodes unless that episode is on my list of 'rewatch every time' or if there's a moment I am curious to see your reaction to. For me, the discussions and arguments with other Trekkies about the last episode is a big part of my personal nostalgia with Star Trek, so I value these posts.
Matthew Riley
2024-03-15 12:47:41 +0000 UTCToday’s generations usually don’t appreciate the history and depth of Irish racism. I remember up to the early 90s in seaside guest house hotels, you’d (occasionally) still see a card in the window with “No Black, No Irish, No Dogs”. For a few years after that it was just “No Irish, No Dogs”, as if we were now progressive. Just this year, Britain’s biggest holiday park chain (Pontins) was found to blacklist group bookings from Irish surnames, routinely refusing telephone bookings and cancelling online bookings. That was targeted at the Irish Traveller community. All the way back to the 12th century when Ireland was part of Britain, official accounts described them as lazy, barbarous, and who had filthy practices. Then a few centuries ago, Thomas Carlyle wrote that Irish live in squalor and unreason, falsity and drunk violence, causing degradation and disorder. Victorian drawings sometimes depicted the Irish as somewhat ape like. In the 70s, Chair of Cambridge University Union did an interview in the US, stating that too many Irish in the US was a problem and “they don’t behave like the English”. Repeating this “British are civilised, Irish are uncivilised” trope. In the late 70s, The Sunday Times wrote (of Ireland) “The notorious problem is how a civilised country can overpower uncivilised people without becoming less civilised in the process.” In 1999, former British Prime Minister said “you can’t trust the Irish; they are all liars” In 2016 a Conservative councillor tweeted “You can keep your fucking gypsies!” when Ireland didn’t give us any points in the Eurovision Song Contest. So, this episode is grossly insensitive and derogatory to the Irish people. That said, there is a later TNG episode that has been banned from Irish TV (in its unedited form) since it was aired. No spoilers, except to say you probably won’t notice it and I doubt it was intentionally offensive, unlike this episode.
Smear Campaign
2024-03-15 12:31:11 +0000 UTC
